Is Rafa in Decline?

[brokenshoelace]

Ah, in that case, who cares? Rafa's best ever HC run has been eclipsed a lot of times by just Federer and Nole anyways.

Has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's best level at the US Open is higher IMO.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[El Dude]

Has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's best level at the US Open is higher IMO.

Uh, are you serious? Are five titles in a row meaningless to you? The US Open has clearly been Rafa's second best Slam but his record is nowhere near Roger's:

ROGER: 5 Wins, 1 Final, 3 SF, 1 QF
RAFA: 2 Wins, 1 Final, 2 SF, 1 QF

I know that Rafa has missed two USOs, but still.

 

[nehmeth]

Ah, in that case, who cares? Rafa's best ever HC run has been eclipsed a lot of times by just Federer and Nole anyways.

Has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's best level at the US Open is higher IMO.

 

[Riotbeard]

Has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's best level at the US Open is higher IMO.

Uh, are you serious? Are five titles in a row meaningless to you? The US Open has clearly been Rafa's second best Slam but his record is nowhere near Roger's:

ROGER: 5 Wins, 1 Final, 3 SF, 1 QF
RAFA: 2 Wins, 1 Final, 2 SF, 1 QF

I know that Rafa has missed two USOs, but still.

What are you talking about dude? We got are most balanced commenter on the job, autopilot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DarthFed]

Ah, in that case, who cares? Rafa's best ever HC run has been eclipsed a lot of times by just Federer and Nole anyways.

Has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's best level at the US Open is higher IMO.

Aside from winning it 5 years in a row...no :cover

 

[auto-pilot]

Again, has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's 2010 and 2013 US Open performances was a higher level of tennis than any of Federer's US Opens.
I saw them all, so its easy to compare.

 

[Kirijax]

Again, has Federer ever played as well as Nadal at the US Open?
Nadal's 2010 and 2013 US Open performances was a higher level of tennis than any of Federer's US Opens.
I saw them all, so its easy to compare.

You need to take whatever it is you're riding off of auto-pilot and do the driving yourself for a while because your vehicle is way off the beaten path.

 

[auto-pilot]

^ So which of Federer's US Opens were a higher level of tennis than Nadal's 2010/2013?

 

[DarthFed]

What's the criteria? If it is performance in the final there is no question the 04 final is the best of the bunch.

 

[auto-pilot]

Well its a matter of observation and opinion.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Well its a matter of observation and opinion.

...and ignorance/bias/trolling.

 

[El Dude]

^ So which of Federer's US Opens were a higher level of tennis than Nadal's 2010/2013?

There's no way to make that determination in any meaningful manner. All we can do are two things:

One, compare impressions and anecdotes which are based on memory (which is always revisionist) and subjectivity.

Two, look at the statistical record and see what it says.

As is well known around these parts I tend to focus on the latter, for two reasons. Firstly, numbers are objective. They aren't everything, they don't tell the whole picture, but they don't lie. Secondly, my knowledge and experience of the game itself is limited.

In the end, both approaches are valid. But the problem is when you pose a question that can only be answered with the first approach - we're just left with warring subjective opinions (thus, the internet). I tend to prefer trying to answer such questions in a more subjective, statistical manner - so rather than saying "who played at the higher level at their best at the US Open?" - which we can't really answer, except through warring opinions - I'd rather ask, "Who played at the most consistently high level at the US Open?" For that you can find the numbers, you can make a determination - and it is clearly Federer (although to be fair to Rafa, part of his problem has been injury).

 

[auto-pilot]

^ The most commonly used word on tennis forums is "goat", and that is as subjective as it gets.
So that's just the way opinions go, based on observation and assessment.

Actually comparing the level of one US Open performance to the other is a lot easier to do that comparing the entire career of Laver to the entire career of Nadal or Federer etc. (as there are way too many era-specific variables involved).

Nearly everything anyone ever writes in this forum is subjective, because: a) the 'eye-test' is very important in sport, and b) statistics very rarely tell the whole story.

Was Federer's best US Open as good as Nadal's best US Open?
Well its very easy to answer, because all you have to do is watch each US Open.

 

[britbox]

Not really, "Greatest" would probably be measured on achievements in a sport. "Higher Level of tennis" would be interpreted on how a particular viewer interprets a match.

I'm not a Nadal fan by any stretch but his 2010 title in particular was "impressive" to me on my own interpretation. If Federer had made the finals that year, I'd have been in little doubt who would have won (Nadal)... but I could suggest the same thing if Nadal had made the 04 or 06 finals, for instance - he'd have been living on a prayer and a wing too - hard to look beyond a Federer title.

So, the whole thing is kind of silly considering they never met.

But, if you are considering who is/was the greatest US Open tennis player amongst the two - then Federer is the answer hands down.

 

[auto-pilot]

^ That's where people screwed up with this topic, I'm talking about the greatest performance at a US Open (let me clarify in advance again: all 7 rounds, not just one match), not how many titles each have won.

 

[Riotbeard]

^ That's where people screwed up with this topic, I'm talking about the greatest performance at a US Open (let me clarify in advance again: all 7 rounds, not just one match), not how many titles each have won.

But that pure subjective opinion, and is clearly going to be based on people biases.

Based on this criteria, Novak 2011 U. S. Open performance :ras:

Coming back against Fed and destroying rafa in the final. Point being your question doesn't lead to an interesting discussion.

 

[El Dude]

auto-pilot, it is just too hard to say whose performance at a given tournament was the best. You're talking all seven matches?! Sure, "easy" if you watch seven matches X how many players you are comparing.

Anyhow, what's the point you are trying to make?

 

[brokenshoelace]

^ That's where people screwed up with this topic, I'm talking about the greatest performance at a US Open (let me clarify in advance again: all 7 rounds, not just one match), not how many titles each have won.

But that pure subjective opinion, and is clearly going to be based on people biases.

Based on this criteria, Novak 2011 U. S. Open performance :ras:

Coming back against Fed and destroying rafa in the final. Point being your question doesn't lead to an interesting discussion.

In all objectivity Novak's US Open win, in terms of level, does not rank up there with Fed's vintage displays at the US Open, or Nadal's 2010 win, if we're talking top to bottom (meaning his performances across 7 matches). His level in the final, at times, was miraculous. Never seen anything like it as far as court coverage, grueling rallies, and impossible shots. But I certainly wouldn't bring up the Federer match since Djokovic was outplayed for the most part. The way he hung on and managed to win it is hugely impressive from a mental fortitude, and of course that match-point return is one of the greatest single shots in the last ten years (seriously, just in terms of impact and what it ended up leading to).

It's not a knock on Novak by any means, and in part, his run to the semis not being that memorable is a result of two of his opponents retiring mid match (can't remember who the first one was but the second was Janko, who was giving Novak all he can handle for two sets, and took one of them).

So yeah, I'd say Novak's performance in the final was one of the finest displays of baseline tennis I've ever seen, and it was more impressive because he managed to keep raising his level even as Nadal raised his in the third. But as an overall run, I don't think it's even on par with some of Novak's other major wins, including the 2008 AO, the 2011 AO (his finest hour from a pure tennis perspective IMO, though not in terms of magnitude of win), and even the 2012 AO (Murray was playing out of his mind in that semi and it still wasn't good enough. Nadal must have left his soul on court and it still wasn't good enough).

 

[Riotbeard]

^ That's where people screwed up with this topic, I'm talking about the greatest performance at a US Open (let me clarify in advance again: all 7 rounds, not just one match), not how many titles each have won.

But that pure subjective opinion, and is clearly going to be based on people biases.

Based on this criteria, Novak 2011 U. S. Open performance :ras:

Coming back against Fed and destroying rafa in the final. Point being your question doesn't lead to an interesting discussion.

In all objectivity Novak's US Open win, in terms of level, does not rank up there with Fed's vintage displays at the US Open, or Nadal's 2010 win, if we're talking top to bottom (meaning his performances across 7 matches). His level in the final, at times, was miraculous. Never seen anything like it as far as court coverage, grueling rallies, and impossible shots. But I certainly wouldn't bring up the Federer match since Djokovic was outplayed for the most part. The way he hung on and managed to win it is hugely impressive from a mental fortitude, and of course that match-point return is one of the greatest single shots in the last ten years (seriously, just in terms of impact and what it ended up leading to).

It's not a knock on Novak by any means, and in part, his run to the semis not being that memorable is a result of two of his opponents retiring mid match (can't remember who the first one was but the second was Janko, who was giving Novak all he can handle for two sets, and took one of them).

So yeah, I'd say Novak's performance in the final was one of the finest displays of baseline tennis I've ever seen, and it was more impressive because he managed to keep raising his level even as Nadal raised his in the third. But as an overall run, I don't think it's even on par with some of Novak's other major wins, including the 2008 AO, the 2011 AO (his finest hour from a pure tennis perspective IMO, though not in terms of magnitude of win), and even the 2012 AO (Murray was playing out of his mind in that semi and it still wasn't good enough. Nadal must have left his soul on court and it still wasn't good enough).

I don't care. My point was not to fuel the conversation, but to point how dumb an argument it is to even have.

But I am saying Novak's 1st and 2nd round wins 2011 were so good to trump everybody else's performances. :snicker

 

[brokenshoelace]

But that pure subjective opinion, and is clearly going to be based on people biases.

Based on this criteria, Novak 2011 U. S. Open performance :ras:

Coming back against Fed and destroying rafa in the final. Point being your question doesn't lead to an interesting discussion.

In all objectivity Novak's US Open win, in terms of level, does not rank up there with Fed's vintage displays at the US Open, or Nadal's 2010 win, if we're talking top to bottom (meaning his performances across 7 matches). His level in the final, at times, was miraculous. Never seen anything like it as far as court coverage, grueling rallies, and impossible shots. But I certainly wouldn't bring up the Federer match since Djokovic was outplayed for the most part. The way he hung on and managed to win it is hugely impressive from a mental fortitude, and of course that match-point return is one of the greatest single shots in the last ten years (seriously, just in terms of impact and what it ended up leading to).

It's not a knock on Novak by any means, and in part, his run to the semis not being that memorable is a result of two of his opponents retiring mid match (can't remember who the first one was but the second was Janko, who was giving Novak all he can handle for two sets, and took one of them).

So yeah, I'd say Novak's performance in the final was one of the finest displays of baseline tennis I've ever seen, and it was more impressive because he managed to keep raising his level even as Nadal raised his in the third. But as an overall run, I don't think it's even on par with some of Novak's other major wins, including the 2008 AO, the 2011 AO (his finest hour from a pure tennis perspective IMO, though not in terms of magnitude of win), and even the 2012 AO (Murray was playing out of his mind in that semi and it still wasn't good enough. Nadal must have left his soul on court and it still wasn't good enough).

I don't care. My point was not to fuel the conversation, but to point how dumb an argument it is to even have.

But I am saying Novak's 1st and 2nd round wins 2011 were so good to trump everybody else's performances. :snicker

I don't buy it, he got broken in the 3rd game of the second set in his second round match after 2 double faults and 2 unforced errors. That automatically eliminates him from the conversation. He also had 3 lets in a row on serve, which would never have happened with prime Federer or Nadal. I agree with my man auto-pilot, as always.