Bryan Brothers: The indisputable GOAT?

[GameSetAndMath]

I think in view of Bryan brothers' 100th title win, they need a separate dedicated thread
for themselves. While we have endless debates over the GOAT notion in singles, I think
there is a consensus that Bryan Brothers are the doubles GOAT. Do you agree?

I am not going to list all the achievements of Bryan Brothers, as it would be too long.
Instead, I will refer you to Bryan Brothers Wiki Page for details. The top ten important
achievements are the following:


1. They are stand alone leaders in number of GS titles, currently at 16.
2. They have non-calendar golden Bryan Slam (simultaneously holding all 4 GS and Olympics Gold Medal)
3. They have double career grand slam (winning all four GS at least twice).
4. They are stand alone leaders in number of Masters titles, currently at 30.
5. They have career golden Masters (won all nine ATP 1000 events).
6. They are stand alone leaders in total number of titles, currently at 100.
7. They have 380 weeks at #1, a standalone record.
8. They have nine years as YE #1, a standalone record.
9. They have won 898 matches, a standalone record.
10. They don't have gaps in resume, as they have won WTF and also DC.

See, it is already mind boggling to think about the top ten important achievements.
They virtually hold every imaginable record in doubles. In singles, some of the
above records are not held by any one (such as career golden masters and non-calendar
Bryan Golden Slam). Also, in singles, many of the above records are held by different
players (for example in GS titles it is Fed, in Masters titles it is Nadal and in total
titles it is Connors). So, my question to you all is whether do you all agree that
Bryan Brothers are the indisputable GOAT.

While I think there would be many who agree, there are detractors like John McEnroe.
John's argument is that these days the singles players do not play doubles and so it is
easy to rack up all kinds of records in doubles unlike in olden days. There is some truth to the
contention and at the same one can only play whoever is the pair across the net.
There could also be some sour grapes issue with Mac as it is personal to him
being a doubles player also.

What do you folks think?

 

[Kieran]

RE: The GOAT Non-debate

They're clearly the greatest now. The Woodies were the greatest then. Mac-plus-one was the greatest whenever.

I kinda agree with Mac that doubles has become even more of a second class event. I don't know if that means the standard is second class, or just the popularity. Frew MacMillan wasn't a great singles player but he was a doubles expert. There's always been men like this. As for great players playing doubles again in future, we'll see. It was never a huge thing at any stage, anyhow - since Borg and Connors, anyway...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

 

[Kieran]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

 

[Billie]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

There is no poll included, so you can talk about future if you'd like. Good luck with predicting it, though.:lolz:

Congratulations to Bryan brothers. It is maybe easier for them since they don't play singles at all, still 100 tournament wins is a great achievement.:clap

 

[tented]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Bryan brothers = doubles GOAT. Absolutely.

What makes them particularly interesting is you can even include pre-Open Era stats, and they still come out on top.

 

[Federberg]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

If you ever needed a reason to question the whole GOAT debate, the Bryan brothers are it. They've done amazingly. But are they really the GOAT of doubles? Really? Can we really say these guys would have beaten either Woodies or Mac/Flemming. I personally have serious doubts that would have been the case. Competition in doubles now is weak. The other 2 pairs played in an era when top singles guys competed in doubles. Apples and oranges for me. That's not to say I'm not impressed with them, but it just gives context to the whole GOAT debate

 

[Luxilon Borg]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

I think in view of Bryan brothers' 100th title win, they need a separate dedicated thread
for themselves. While we have endless debates over the GOAT notion in singles, I think the
there is a consensus that Bryan Brothers are the doubles GOAT. Do you agree?

I am not going to list all the achievements of Bryan Brothers, as it would be too long.
Instead, I will refer you to Bryan Brothers Wiki Page for details. The most important things are that they are
the stand alone leaders in number of GS titles won and also in number of total titles won. They have won
career grand slam (actually, more than that, they won Bryan Slam). They have won
olympic god medal, so actually career golden slam. They don't have any gap in the resume
as they have won davis cup also and they have career golden masters (the stupidly named
thing that Novak tried to achieve in Cincy this year). They have won WTF titles three times
as well. They have 380 total weeks at #1, again a stand alone record; nine years as YE #1,
again a stand alone record. They also have the stand alone record for # of matches won.

See, it is already tiring to list even the important achievements. They virtually hold
every imaginable record in doubles. So, my question to you all is whether do you all
agree that Bryan Brothers are the indisputable GOAT.

While I think there would be many who agree, there are detractors like John McEnroe.
John's argument is that these days the singles players do not play doubles and so it is
easy to rack up all kinds of records unlike in olden days. There is some truth to the
contention and at the same one can only play whoever is the pair across the net.
There could also be some sore grapes issue with Mac as it is personal to him
being a doubles player.

What do you folks think?

They are the absolute undisputed greatest team ever.

BTW< I am NOT a fan of doubles. But I had a chance to watch the BB practice over 3 days at my club on red clay in prep for the Davis Cup tie against Great Britain.

I gained SO much respect for what they do. Their work ethic is ridiculous.

They rain their practice partners in to the ground, and they had 15 years on these guys.

One of them, btw, was Noah Rubin.

The BB are freaks...they are relentless, and their focus was unrelenting.

 

[tented]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

[LB - I don't want to derail a thread which just began about one topic, but could you briefly provide your thoughts on Noah Rubin? Perhaps a new thread for him, and other juniors you may have encountered?]

 

[Luxilon Borg]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

[LB - I don't want to derail a thread which just began about one topic, but could you briefly provide your thoughts on Noah Rubin? Perhaps a new thread for him, and other juniors you may have encountered?]

Sure thing. Rubin was a very nice kid, humble.

His game..he is a speed demon..about five foot eight roughly. Exceptional timing, very good forehand, and very athletic. Very Michael Changish.

I don't have too much first hand experience with some of the others, but I think Tiafoe has a LOT of work to do. Many technical flaws. I liked what I saw with Koslov. Very clever, Murrayish knowledge of the court.

I knew Bradley Khlan as a junior, and he went on to play #1 for Stanford, and is now pro. His ranking has slipped form the mid 60s down to 90s. He practices at my club and is there this week actually.

The BB were also impressed with Rubin btw.

 

[shawnbm]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

There is no doubles GOAT either--only of a given epoch and this is theirs. McEnroe-Fleming once were and the Woodies too. If we go back to Roche and Newcombe, you got the same. No time travel unfortunately--too bad, a I would have liked to see them against Mac and Peter in particular. Or how about Nastase with Connors or Gerulitis?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Kieran]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Well I left this confab in high dudgeon over the narrowness of the scope viz the future, but I'm back from there to say that I agree with Shawn...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

There is a reason that I banned the inclusion of future candidates. I had a strong suspicion
that you will start arguing about the greater potential of Leo and Lenny, the Federer Boys.

 

[nehmeth]

RE: The indisputable GOAT

They're clearly the greatest now. The Woodies were the greatest then. Mac-plus-one was the greatest whenever.

I kinda agree with Mac that doubles has become even more of a second class event. I don't know if that means the standard is second class, or just the popularity. Frew MacMillan wasn't a great singles player but he was a doubles expert. There's always been men like this. As for great players playing doubles again in future, we'll see. It was never a huge thing at any stage, anyhow - since Borg and Connors, anyway...

Good post Kieran. I think the popularity has suffered as a result of the singles game. The top tier is so rigorous now, that the guys cannot afford to be expending any extra energy playing doubles. When the big names aren't present, the people don't show up to fill the seats. And while some of these doubles specialists display great team work and net play, there's a reason they aren't burning up the courts on the singles tour.

Give me Mac + one any day.

 

[nehmeth]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

There is a reason that I banned the inclusion of future candidates. I had a strong suspicion
that you will start arguing about the greater potential of Leo and Lenny, the Federer Boys.

:snigger Highly doubtful. Now if Ralf has twins....

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

There is a reason that I banned the inclusion of future candidates. I had a strong suspicion
that you will start arguing about the greater potential of Leo and Lenny, the Federer Boys.

:snigger Highly doubtful. Now if Ralf has twins....

I know his allegiance, just trying to pull his leg. :laydownlaughing

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

Of course, we are talking about GOAT so far only as none of us can predict the future.
Limit your discussion to that.

That's brutally unfair. I want the future included or I'm out...

There is no poll included, so you can talk about future if you'd like. Good luck with predicting it, though.:lolz:

Congratulations to Bryan brothers. It is maybe easier for them since they don't play singles at all, still 100 tournament wins is a great achievement.:clap

We don't worry about the fact that they don't play singles at all as we are purely talking
about DOUBLES GOAT. That is not John McEnroe's objection either. John's point was that
since the top singles players no longer play doubles, the competition in doubles is weak
and so the Bryan brothers are able to rack up the numbers.

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

NAh.. It will always be Johnny Mac and whomever(all due respect to Peter Fleming). The Bryan Bros are the best of today era but no where near the GOAT.. Mac and Fleming faced some of the most talented two way(singles and doubles) players ever. Eg. I would like to know how the Bryans fared against Rafa, Fed or even Djoker in doubles.(by the way.. these guys play doubles less than part -time unlike the Bryans or even Johnny Mac back in the late 80s.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

NAh.. It will always be Johnny Mac and whomever(all due respect to Peter Fleming). The Bryan Bros are the best of today era but no where near the GOAT.. Mac and Fleming faced some of the most talented two way(singles and doubles) players ever. Eg. I would like to know how the Bryans fared against Rafa, Fed or even Djoker in doubles.(by the way.. these guys play doubles less than part -time unlike the Bryans or even Johnny Mac back in the late 80s.

That is basically the gist of John's argument. If Fed and Wawrinka, Rafa and M. Lopez,
Djokovic and Zimonjic, Murray and Marray had regularly entered in the doubles events in
all major tournaments, would Bryan Brothers have accumulated as many records as they
have now? It is difficult to answer that question as it did not happen.

The only reasonable thing that we can do is to view the H2H record of Bryan Brothers
against any pair of the form "Big Four + One More". That requires some work for which
I don't have patience now. Perhaps some other poster might dig this up for us. I will
try to get to it at leisure, if no one does.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The indisputable GOAT?

The OP is now updated to quickly see the tremendous accomplishments of Bryan Brothers and
to put them in context in comparison to singles GOAT debate.