ATP rankings sucks!!!

[DarthFed]

Yeah players like Nakamura and Aronian just aren't quite sound enough to beat Magnus consistently. Aronian is an exciting player but at this point I think Magnus will have his number going forward. Naka probably will get a win but maybe not, and if it is 1-10 record or whatever it is still really embarrassing.

Particularly as Hikaru seems to see himself in very inflated terms. I agree about Aronian. He really is a major choker. I think Caruana is his most serious threat going forward. Haven't made up my mind about Giri yet

Yes, Hikaru has always been brass. I don't mind it that much but when he talks trash about how he is Carlsen's #1 competitor it is a little ridiculous. Giri has regressed a bit but Caruana is coming on strong and he does give Carlsen problems.

 

[DarthFed]

Similar to you I don't play much anymore. I have a business on the side that pretty much took me out of chess. After high school I still played a lot online but only to get ready for one big money tournament per year (had decent success in them). Might not be a surprise to you but I hate losing too. Nothing makes me feel less intelligent than losing a game of chess and nothing makes me more angry either. Those tournaments weren't for fun and leisure and the times I screwed up it was not pleasant to be around me as my parents would tell you.

If you are on ICC at all my username is SpartanKing on there...

What a shocker!!!

What's given it away :snigger Reactions to Roger losing are nothing compared to my GB Packers going down or me losing a game of chess

 

[Federberg]

^Ditto for me. Tottenham Hotspur getting beaten is more harmful to my emotional well being these days, than a Fed loss!

 

[atttomole]

^Ditto for me. Tottenham Hotspur getting beaten is more harmful to my emotional well being these days, than a Fed loss!

If you are a Tottehnam fan, then I fear that it could get worse because Tottenham may not do very well this season. However, I think you could be in the top 7 for a Europa League place.

 

[Federberg]

^Ditto for me. Tottenham Hotspur getting beaten is more harmful to my emotional well being these days, than a Fed loss!

If you are a Tottehnam fan, then I fear that it could get worse because Tottenham may not do very well this season. However, I think you could be in the top 7 for a Europa League place.

The transfer window's not closed yet. We could do some good business Besides Man Utd don't look better and Everton haven't got any stronger. Liverpool have European football to contend with, and frankly we have to be better than last season. I could easily see us getting 10 points more so I'm not ready to be pessimistic yet!

 

[August]

What's the timespan of Elo rankings? No way Murray can be #4 of past 12 months.

Seems like the Elo rankings reward ability to win tournaments here and then without consistency whereas the ATP rankings reward consistency over winning. I think it's fair to put a player who always makes the QFs above a player who 9/10 times goes out before QFs yet in 1/10 times wins the whole tournament.

One can also discuss about the ideal timespan of rankings. Given the tour consists of seasons on different surfaces, I think the timespan must be a year. Two-year ranking might forgive injuries but wouldn't reflect current form so much. And I like it how the Race to London is basically the race for YE #1.

 

[atttomole]

^Ditto for me. Tottenham Hotspur getting beaten is more harmful to my emotional well being these days, than a Fed loss!

If you are a Tottehnam fan, then I fear that it could get worse because Tottenham may not do very well this season. However, I think you could be in the top 7 for a Europa League place.

The transfer window's not closed yet. We could do some good business Besides Man Utd don't look better and Everton haven't got any stronger. Liverpool have European football to contend with, and frankly we have to be better than last season. I could easily see us getting 10 points more so I'm not ready to be pessimistic yet!

I agree with your points. I think they still money left from Bale's sale last year, so Tottenham could use it. I would also add Arsenal who will playing in the CL and they could struggle domestically especially if the go far in the CL.

 

[tented]

What's the timespan of Elo rankings? No way Murray can be #4 of past 12 months.

Seems like the Elo rankings reward ability to win tournaments here and then without consistency whereas the ATP rankings reward consistency over winning. I think it's fair to put a player who always makes the QFs above a player who 9/10 times goes out before QFs yet in 1/10 times wins the whole tournament.

One can also discuss about the ideal timespan of rankings. Given the tour consists of seasons on different surfaces, I think the timespan must be a year. Two-year ranking might forgive injuries but wouldn't reflect current form so much. And I like it how the Race to London is basically the race for YE #1.

I agree. The consistency over one year is more important than the bandwagon mentality of the odd success. (For Tsonga, 1/10 is even way too high.)

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I am fine with the current ranking system. However, it should not be used directly for seeding
purposes. In fact, Wimbledon already does not use the rankings blindly to form the seedings.
Instead they tweak the rankings based on results on grass.

Perhaps, every tournament (not just GS), should tweak the seedings based on
performance on that surface (IH, OH, C and G).

Also, it would be nice to have some bonus points in the rankings to incentivize
upsets. At some point WTA ranking system had such incentive, but then they dispensed
it. They can limit the bonus to a max of 50% of the points earned in that round
and have a distribution based on the difference in rankings.

 

[Front242]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

exception is Soderling

 

[tented]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

Apparently not that upset, since they didn't do enough to avoid it from even happening.

 

[Front242]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

exception is Soderling

So true. Had forgotten about him. Man, I miss that guy on tour. Can you imagine if he was still in peak condition right now with the way the top guys have fallen off to quite an extent of late. He'd certainly have bagged a masters 1000 or 2 in the last year or so if he was still at the level he was playing at when he was world number 4. Still hold out a slim bit of hope he'll return.

 

[tented]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

exception is Soderling

So true. Had forgotten about him. Man, I miss that guy on tour. Can you imagine if he was still in peak condition right now with the way the top guys have fallen off to quite an extent of late. He'd certainly have bagged a masters 1000 or 2 in the last year or so if he was still at the level he was playing at when he was world number 4. Still hold out a slim bit of hope he'll return.

He's 30 years old. He wouldn't be in the same peak condition, either. Besides, let's not get carried away. Even when he was at the peak of his form, he wasn't consistent with the top guys.

He had a big win over Rafa, then a big win over Roger the following year. But look at the scores of those finals: both straight set losses. He capitalized on less-than-peak-form champions. Mainly, however, he's the answer to a trivia question. That's it.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

exception is Soderling

So true. Had forgotten about him. Man, I miss that guy on tour. Can you imagine if he was still in peak condition right now with the way the top guys have fallen off to quite an extent of late. He'd certainly have bagged a masters 1000 or 2 in the last year or so if he was still at the level he was playing at when he was world number 4. Still hold out a slim bit of hope he'll return.

He's 30 years old. He wouldn't be in the same peak condition, either. Besides, let's not get carried away. Even when he was at the peak of his form, he wasn't consistent with the top guys.

He had a big win over Rafa, then a big win over Roger the following year. But look at the scores of those finals: both straight set losses. He capitalized on less-than-peak-form champions. Mainly, however, he's the answer to a trivia question. That's it.

Let us not be bitter here as he took out our heroes. It is to be noted that after
defeating Rafa in R16, instead of flaming out, he reached all the way to finals.
Similarly, after defeating Roger in QF the following year, he reached the finals. So,
on both occassions instead of simply losing the next round on the high generated
by the previous win, he managed to reach the final. So, he is not just an answer to
trivial question.

Steve Darcis or Stakovsky would be answer to trivia questions, but not Soderling.
Also, Soderling actually has a ATP 1000 win in Bercy.

 

[Front242]

^ Don't agree, sorry. He knocked Murray to number 5, destroyed Berdych 6-1, 6-0 in the semis of Bastad 2011 before destroying Ferrer 6-2 6-2. Those are pretty damn dominating scorelines against two decent players on clay. Tommy Haas is planning to come back next year and will be 37 then, Stepanek is playing great still and will be 36 soon, even Michael Russell who's 36 made a monkey out of Ferrer winning a 6-2 set recently at Toronto. Soderling didn't just beat Rafa and Roger in 2009 and 2010, he beat every other guy after them to reach the final. Not many of the also rans out there in 2014 and since he left have done that.

Soderling was consistently doing well at most events from 2009 till he got mono and was one of the recent trend of players really starting to play his best in his mid-late 20s

 

[tented]

It'd be nice to see players causing upsets actually win their next match for once! Though Kyrgios strung together 2 big wins at least this year. Most though lose miserably in their next match after an upset and must feel pretty upset themselves.

exception is Soderling

So true. Had forgotten about him. Man, I miss that guy on tour. Can you imagine if he was still in peak condition right now with the way the top guys have fallen off to quite an extent of late. He'd certainly have bagged a masters 1000 or 2 in the last year or so if he was still at the level he was playing at when he was world number 4. Still hold out a slim bit of hope he'll return.

He's 30 years old. He wouldn't be in the same peak condition, either. Besides, let's not get carried away. Even when he was at the peak of his form, he wasn't consistent with the top guys.

He had a big win over Rafa, then a big win over Roger the following year. But look at the scores of those finals: both straight set losses. He capitalized on less-than-peak-form champions. Mainly, however, he's the answer to a trivia question. That's it.

Let us not be bitter here as he took out our heroes. It is to be noted that after
defeating Rafa in R16, instead of flaming out, he reached all the way to finals.
Similarly, after defeating Roger in QF the following year, he reached the finals. So,
on both occassions instead of simply losing the next round on the high generated
by the previous win, he managed to reach the final. So, he is not just an answer to
trivial question.

Steve Darcis or Stakovsky would be answer to trivia questions, but not Soderling.
Also, Soderling actually has a ATP 1000 win in Bercy.

First, I'm not bitter. He won, fair and square, and should be congratulated. If I were to hold grudges against every player who's beaten Rafa, I would be consumed with them. I feel no ill will towards Kyrgios, Darcis, Wawrinka, Tsonga, del Potro, and the huge list of others who stopped Rafa from winning important tournaments.

Second, of course I'm aware Soderling didn't lose in the next round after beating Rafa and Roger, and made it to the finals, hence my including a special note about those loses. Again, he had two great runs at a major. Two. That's one more than one. He won one Masters, but was only ever in one Masters final. Again, congrats on winning Bercy.

But, again, let's face it: we're not going to be hearing Soderling's speech upon being inducted into the Hall of Fame.

 

[Front242]

Going back to my point earlier...the way Djokovic, Federer and Murray are playing right now if Soderling was still playing and at his world number 4 peak level, I'd hazard a guess he'd have easily beaten them all numerous times. The way Nadal played the clay masters prior to Roland Garros this year, he'd have beaten him too and quite possibly won one of them as it's not like Ferrer and Almagro played amazing there to beat him and Soderling at world number 4 level was a much better player than them.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I agree that he won't be inducted into hall of fame. What you fail to recognize is that
there are intermediate categories between "answer to a trivia question" and
"hall of fame material".

You said Soderling is just an "answer to a trivia question". When confronted, you
say he is not "hall o fame material". I don't see the logic.

Steve Darcis and Stakhovsky would be "answer to trivia questions" as they have
done nothing other than taking out a big name on a good day (and on top of it
flaming out in the very next round).

Not Soderling.

 

[Moxie]

I am fine with the current ranking system. However, it should not be used directly for seeding
purposes. In fact, Wimbledon already does not use the rankings blindly to form the seedings.
Instead they tweak the rankings based on results on grass.

Perhaps, every tournament (not just GS), should tweak the seedings based on
performance on that surface (IH, OH, C and G).

Also, it would be nice to have some bonus points in the rankings to incentivize
upsets. At some point WTA ranking system had such incentive, but then they dispensed
it. They can limit the bonus to a max of 50% of the points earned in that round
and have a distribution based on the difference in rankings.

With Wimbledon, it makes sense to have a system that tweaks rankings based on grass results, as there are so few. But they have a clear, mathematical system. (At least for the men.) To seed the rest of the tournaments based on anything other than ATP rankings risks the appearance of jiggering or favoritism, unless they could put up an equally coherent and transparent formula. That seems a bit baroque, to me.

And I don't see why you'd need to incentivize upsets. Aren't lower ranked players inclined enough? They get more points and more money, not to mention PR. That they often don't capitalize on an upset, as has been mentioned, is down to their ability to do it, or not. Soderling, to his credit, is one who did, for a period in his career. But he was also volatile and unreliable. It's impossible to predict what he would have done, had he not been felled by mono. He made a creditable career, in the sweet-spot of it, but tented is not wrong to say that he is a bit of the answer to a trivia question, either. Every late May, his name come up, during Roland Garros.