Are zoos cruel or are they necessary to prevent some animals from going extinct today?

Horsa

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That's great! I've been on a few cruises and it's a wonderful sight to watch dolphins leaping out of the water, they actually play in the waves from ships, magnificent sight.
It is indeed great. I haven't seen dolphins while I've been on ships but I've seen porpoises playing as well as seals & puffins swimming about having fun. I know porpoises are very similar to dolphins but there's a difference between them. I've forgotten what it is.
 
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Chris Koziarz

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I still disagree on all counts, my opinion is that wild animals should be left in the wild. Nothing will convince me differently.
Let me question your views a little bit. Not all animals are kept in captivity for show only. Not all zoos are cruel. As their knowledge of their animals in custody increases, they are able to create better conditions for them. Sometimes, the conditions (if there is enough space available) perfectly mimic the natural conditions or are even better/safer.
As usual, the reality is not black and white and some zoos are better and some worse for their animal well being. Your opinion is likely the result of your negative experience with those "bad"zoos. But there are cases, where the animal's welfare or even essential survival prospects depend highly on the amount of care they receive in custody of zoos. They would not survive without zoos. Example case DFTD disease by Tasmanian Devil. Read this article carefully:
Survival of the fittest? Perhaps not if you’re a Tasmanian devil
Couple quotes from the conclusion section:
"[...]a targeted vaccination of socially dominant individuals would be more efficient than randomly picking individuals for vaccination."
"If devil individuals from captive insurance populations were to be released into wild populations, the consequences for disease spread and population viability would be unpredictable without a better understanding of the role of social behaviour in disease transmission."
So your opinion that "wild animals should be left in the wild" if applied to TD, would send this species to certain extinction. While the efforts by Australian Zoo's Save Tasmanian Devil Program does give this species some chance of survival.
I happen to know few people who work in this program. Their motivation is pure love and no money nor show off. TD is not a "show species" and I've never seen it on exhibition in any location.
 

Horsa

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Let me question your views a little bit. Not all animals are kept in captivity for show only. Not all zoos are cruel. As their knowledge of their animals in custody increases, they are able to create better conditions for them. Sometimes, the conditions (if there is enough space available) perfectly mimic the natural conditions or are even better/safer.
As usual, the reality is not black and white and some zoos are better and some worse for their animal well being. Your opinion is likely the result of your negative experience with those "bad"zoos. But there are cases, where the animal's welfare or even essential survival prospects depend highly on the amount of care they receive in custody of zoos. They would not survive without zoos. Example case DFTD disease by Tasmanian Devil. Read this article carefully:
Survival of the fittest? Perhaps not if you’re a Tasmanian devil
Couple quotes from the conclusion section:
"[...]a targeted vaccination of socially dominant individuals would be more efficient than randomly picking individuals for vaccination."
"If devil individuals from captive insurance populations were to be released into wild populations, the consequences for disease spread and population viability would be unpredictable without a better understanding of the role of social behaviour in disease transmission."
So your opinion that "wild animals should be left in the wild" if applied to TD, would send this species to certain extinction. While the efforts by Australian Zoo's Save Tasmanian Devil Program does give this species some chance of survival.
I happen to know few people who work in this program. Their motivation is pure love and no money nor show off. TD is not a "show species" and I've never seen it on exhibition in any location.
Thank you very much for the information, Chris. I agree with most of what you said though I didn't know all that about Tasmanian devils. I found the information you shared about them fascinating.
 

CandyGirl

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Let me question your views a little bit. Not all animals are kept in captivity for show only. Not all zoos are cruel. As their knowledge of their animals in custody increases, they are able to create better conditions for them. Sometimes, the conditions (if there is enough space available) perfectly mimic the natural conditions or are even better/safer.
As usual, the reality is not black and white and some zoos are better and some worse for their animal well being. Your opinion is likely the result of your negative experience with those "bad"zoos. But there are cases, where the animal's welfare or even essential survival prospects depend highly on the amount of care they receive in custody of zoos. They would not survive without zoos. Example case DFTD disease by Tasmanian Devil. Read this article carefully:
Survival of the fittest? Perhaps not if you’re a Tasmanian devil
Couple quotes from the conclusion section:
"[...]a targeted vaccination of socially dominant individuals would be more efficient than randomly picking individuals for vaccination."
"If devil individuals from captive insurance populations were to be released into wild populations, the consequences for disease spread and population viability would be unpredictable without a better understanding of the role of social behaviour in disease transmission."
So your opinion that "wild animals should be left in the wild" if applied to TD, would send this species to certain extinction. While the efforts by Australian Zoo's Save Tasmanian Devil Program does give this species some chance of survival.
I happen to know few people who work in this program. Their motivation is pure love and no money nor show off. TD is not a "show species" and I've never seen it on exhibition in any location.
I've never been to a zoo in my life and i have no intention of going to one, if i want to see wild animals i would go on Safari to see them. In my opinion zoos are cruel and no matter how big the enclosures are, how well the animal is fed, how clean the animal is kept, etc, i do not agree with keeping wild animals in captivity.
 

calitennis127

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Global warming has caused ice floes & icebergs to melt in the arctic which means penguins don't have as much of a safe haven against leopard seals who hide behind these or disguise themselves as boulders until penguins go off in search for food but this also affects the leopard seals who don't have as much of a safe haven against their predator which is the orca.

Yet, the penguin population of what is called "East Antarctica" has recently doubled to nearly 6 million "with new data showing there are actually 3.6 million more than previously thought."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...on-grows-millions-scientists-revise-estimate/
 

calitennis127

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Sorry I missed this thread, and your birthday on the 12th, Horsa. :rose: I do think it's an interesting question, and very complicated. I'm with BB and Darth who say they've very much enjoyed going to zoos over the years. They give us, as children (and grown-ups) a great love and empathy for many kinds of animals, which is useful. And they've been greatly improved in the last 40 years, in that they're not merely in cages, but generally in open and very well thought-out enclosures, which hugely consider the needs of the particular animal. We've come a long way from the PT Barnum days of just taking an animal from the wild and exploiting it. A lot of zoos have animals that weren't born in the wild, and couldn't necessarily live there. They also have the opportunity to breed endangered species, in cooperation with other zoos, taking care to not interbreed, etc. It seems to me that now zoos seem to have much more of a mission to animal conservation, rather than just exhibition, and this is a good thing. Let's face it: when we're talking about how we feel about zoos, we're talking about the large animals. Lions, tigers, polar bears and pandas, elephants, leopards, giraffes, etc. No one gives a toss that a tarantula or a python are in a box. My point being, though, that if you can put those big animals, (and the small ones,) in an environment where they are well cared for, and you can make first-world people love them, especially from very young, you have a better chance of saving them from the poachers and the others who actually would exploit them, or the environmental factors that are killing them. The closer contact we have with them, the more we can empathize and care. That's my best argument for good zoos in the 21st C.


What a touching, moving, kind-hearted ode to the importance of animal conservation and protection. I almost feel like Dalai Lama wrote that post.

If you want to save animals from terrible pollution and overpopulation, you might want to consider getting tough on China and India since they are the world's two biggest polluters. They are a much bigger problem than "making First-World people love them."
 

calitennis127

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I completely respect this. But I do think you have to realize that not all animals are wrested from the wild. Rather a lot are born in captivity, and, whatever we think about that, we have to take care of them. In the 19th C./-late 20th C. there was a fashion not just for shooting them, but for capturing them, and putting them in circuses, zoos, and variously exploited displays. There are generations of animals that were born in captivity and we have to take care of them. That is complicated, but we have to deal with it. In your earlier post, you mash together a lot of ideas, including vivisection and animal testing. Clearly you are an animal rights person, and I very much am myself, but that is a different question than zoos. I do think that zoos, aquatic parks and even a lot of safari expeditions have taken on the mantel of conservation and protection of animals. Where they don't, they're being called out.


Any concerns about zoos or perhaps the fate of trans penguins, who tend to not get the same protection as cis penguins, is eclipsed by what China does to the environment. But of course no one talks about that. Here is one of many examples. 100 kilograms of poisoned dead fish in a river near a chemical plant:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/04/china-poisoned-fish-river
 

Horsa

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Yet, the penguin population of what is called "East Antarctica" has recently doubled to nearly 6 million "with new data showing there are actually 3.6 million more than previously thought."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...on-grows-millions-scientists-revise-estimate/
I'm very sorry for the late response but I've been at work all day looking after the geophysicists in an admin & host capacity. (I work in heritage preservation.)

I was going to write more but have been told to keep things short & simple in the past.

I didn't know that. Thank you very much for sharing this information with me. The information I wrote my piece from was out of books & T.V. programmes. I don't read much news. I prefer reading books.
 
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Chris Koziarz

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Yet, the penguin population of what is called "East Antarctica" has recently doubled to nearly 6 million "with new data showing there are actually 3.6 million more than previously thought."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...on-grows-millions-scientists-revise-estimate/

I didn't know that. Thank you very much for sharing this information with me. The information I wrote my piece from was out of books & T.V. programmes. I don't read much news. I prefer reading books.
Daily Telegraph news should be the last sources of your news, otherwise your worldview would be incorrect/biased.
What is going on, I think, Daily Telegraph compared the breeding pair numbers (estimated throughout previous decades until now) with total numbers breeding + non-breeding (estimated from now on due to changed observation technology), concluding that the population "jumped" by 3.5mln. Such conclusion is misleading to the casual reader. The correct (not misleading) conclusion would be something like: "despite breeding penguin population decline, new non-breeding population has been discovered, giving hope that penguins will recover when that previously unknown population starts to breed". This is what scientists said. This is vastly different to what DT said.
The reality (apple-to-apple comparison) is always closer to what reputable scientific journals are saying:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05850-2
 
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