Are zoos cruel or are they necessary to prevent some animals from going extinct today?

Horsa

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Since I'm not as sensitive as I was I've taken advantage of the fact by watching wildlife which I always loved but used to cry at hunting, killing & eating scenes or just switch off now I just feel physically sick. After watching quite a few I felt the need to question an opinion shared by many that zoos are cruel as I realised that sometimes zoos stop some animals from going extinct for reasons I will go on to explain later.

1stly, between Mongolia & China a group of scientists attempted to reintroduce Przewalski's horse (equus przewalski) into the wild & breed them. They were kept in small enclosures show-jumping ring size. They were also protected from wolves which are their natural predators & Bedouin who passed by every now & then with their horses. The Bedouin didn't want to eat them or anything but had stallions which are members of the modern horse family (equus caballus) which has 66 chromosomes while Przewalski's horses only have 64 so if a modern horse decided to mate with a Przewalski's horse the consequences could be dire. The scientists also found that Przewalski's horses were struggling to find enough food for themselves to live on.

2ndly, human beings so far have caused the extinction of 4 animals & have put others on the endangered species list. The animals I'm talking about that humans have caused the extinction of are Takhis, Tarpans, Dodos & Passenger pigeons. Although it's illegal people still poach elephants & rhinos for their tusks & horns respectively. The reason why they do this is because they get paid quite a bit for it & they live in poor countries where doing this is better paid than getting a job. Their government rake it in & live the high life while poor people have to struggle in order to stop themselves from starving. I think their government should do something about the quality of life for their people so they wouldn't have to do this. Rhino horns are seen as medicine there whereas if their government did something so up-to-date medicine was available this wouldn't be necessary. Chimpanzees, red-faced macaques & gorillas are slaughtered for the same reasons. Some chimpanzees are kept as pets. Deforestation has also destroyed the habitat of many animals.

Global warming has caused ice floes & icebergs to melt in the arctic which means penguins don't have as much of a safe haven against leopard seals who hide behind these or disguise themselves as boulders until penguins go off in search for food but this also affects the leopard seals who don't have as much of a safe haven against their predator which is the orca.

Some animals would die in nature or have become endangered for natural reasons. For example, a chimpanzee has a child but rejects it by not picking it up quickly enough. In the wild it would die of hypothermia. Marsupials have a pouch that is big enough for only 1 child. If that marsupial has twins when they get bigger the stronger child pushes out the weaker 1. In the wild that child would die. Albinos also have less chance of surviving in the wild because of their white colouring & red eyes due to lack of melanin in their system. This makes them stand out a mile so they're an easy target. Pandas are endangered because they're not very social & only breed for a short period every year. If they don't breed then, that's it for another year. Californian Condors became endangered until put on a breeding programme. There were only between 22-24 in the wild in the world.

Although zoos restrict animals freedom to some extent they also look after & offer the animals more protection than they would have in the wild so I think they're necessary to prevent some animals from going extinct.

What do you think?
 
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britbox

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Interesting post. It got me thinking.

I'm not sure it's a black and white answer. I think some zoos are better than others. Some organisations controlling zoos have better intentions than others.

I'm a total hypocrite on this subject. I love going to zoos... but deep down I know that most zoos (not all) are commercial ventures where the most important animal on campus is the accountant.
 
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Horsa

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Interesting post. It got me thinking.

I'm not sure it's a black and white answer. I think some zoos are better than others. Some organisations controlling zoos have better intentions than others.

I'm a total hypocrite on this subject. I love going to zoos... but deep down I know that most zoos (not all) are commercial ventures where the most important animal on campus is the accountant.
Thank you very much.

I quite agree with you that dichotomous thinking is not the way to go about the questions posed by me which I thought were important. I guess the question I should have asked is "to what extent are zoos cruel & to what extent are zoos necessary to prevent some animals from going extinct?".

I love going to zoos too. I think that the money goes towards feeding & looking after the animals as well as paying staff but the extortionate fees charged sometimes means sometimes staff or management get more money than the animals.
 
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Great thread @Horsa and it is sadly now a more interesting debate than ever. Like BB I enjoy going to zoos even though it is very much commercialized like anything else and some zoos/countries are better than others in this regard.

In a perfect world or even a good one I don't think the zoos would be necessary as they'd simply just be exotic animals in captivity which is nothing Id like to see. But with the growing number of poachers, trophy hunters and just the effects of the overpopulation of the human race and potential climate change (another hot debate), more and more species are landing on the endangered list and there's no reason to think it will get better anytime soon. I do hope for the wide death of poachers and trophy hunters (literally I do) but I fear general overpopulation and climate may be far greater factors both now and in the future and if I'm right it is likely an irreversible trend that will probably see many majestic animals go extinct in the not so distant future. And that's where zoos and/or cloning may actually be a decent thing at this point.
 
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Horsa

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Great thread @Horsa and it is sadly now a more interesting debate than ever. Like BB I enjoy going to zoos even though it is very much commercialized like anything else and some zoos/countries are better than others in this regard.

In a perfect world or even a good one I don't think the zoos would be necessary as they'd simply just be exotic animals in captivity which is nothing Id like to see. But with the growing number of poachers, trophy hunters and just the effects of the overpopulation of the human race and potential climate change (another hot debate), more and more species are landing on the endangered list and there's no reason to think it will get better anytime soon. I do hope for the wide death of poachers and trophy hunters (literally I do) but I fear general overpopulation and climate may be far greater factors both now and in the future and if I'm right it is likely an irreversible trend that will probably see many majestic animals go extinct in the not so distant future. And that's where zoos and/or cloning may actually be a decent thing at this point.
Thank you very much, DarthFed. I agree.

I agree with that too. It would be lovely if we could see wild animals in their own habitat living the lives that they were born to live but realise that is just a utopian dream. It would be sad to see other animals go extinct & I'll say something similar to you about poachers & trophy hunters but what I'd like is to be in the same room as them, well, the ones who don't do it because they can't afford to feed their families without doing that anyway. (Mind you, I know what happened in the tragic case of the treatment of Dianne Fossey when she tried to prevent the killing of the mountain gorillas she was studying so maybe my idea wasn't a good 1.) In the case of very poor people who only do it to get enough money to feed their families because they get more money than they would by having a legitimate job I think the governments in their country should do more to help their people so that is no longer the case instead of living the high life like they do.
 
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Horsa

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Since I didn't mention Charles Darwin earlier & not only would it fit into this conversation but he was born on this day in 1809 I feel that I owe him the honour of mentioning him in passing to say something I missed out earlier. He came up with the theory of evolution. He believed that the strongest survived but it's not only the strongest & fittest that survive but the animals who are most adaptable to change. In some animal families some members die out while others carry on & adapt. I will share an example from my favourite animal family which is the equine or equidae family of animals which includes horses, ponies, donkeys, asses, mules & zebras. Takhis & Tarpans died out. 1 of the horses ancestors equus sylvestris (I've forgotten what its common name is) had 64 chromosomes like the endangered Przewalski's horse (equus przewalski) whereas the modern horse (equus caballus) has 66 chromosomes.

I'm very sorry if this is not quite up to my normal standard but it's also my Birthday & I got 2 bottles of sweet & fruity rose wine as a present & I've been enjoying it.
 

Horsa

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I forgot to mention that I was using the term zoo loosely here to mean zoo, safari park, sea-life centre & animal sanctuary here but I think that you guys got that.
 

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I've never been to a zoo in my life and i never will, i find it cruel to keep wild animals in cages/pens.
 
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Horsa

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I've never been to a zoo in my life and i never will, i find it cruel to keep wild animals in cages/pens.
I think that it is cruel in principle to keep wild animals caged up but because of other factors which I have described above that unfortunately it is a necessary evil to prevent certain animal species from dying out unless something can be done to stop certain things like trophy hunters killing tigers & lions. (I know I added quite a lot in there not only about animals & the good some scientists have done to keep animal species going but also the impact poachers & global warming has on our animals as well as some nature stuff. This was actually a short piece for me.) Some zoos actually treat their animals quite well & I was using the term zoo loosely to also include safari parks, sea life centres & animal sanctuaries. Governments could make animal protection laws or tighten up existing animal protection laws & do more for their people so that they can't get more money for ivory & rhino horn than they can for doing normal jobs & so they can afford to feed their families because these countries are poor (well, the people are. The governments live in the lap of luxury.) & sometimes the public have to choose between doing this & starving. Their governments could also do with bringing in modern medicine because rhino horn is classed as medicine there. I know that I for 1 wouldn't like to see any of these animal species die out & I think that everything possible should be done to prevent this.

What do you think could or should be done in order to prevent certain animal species from becoming extinct?
 
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I think that it is cruel in principle to keep wild animals caged up but because of other factors which I have described above that unfortunately it is a necessary evil to prevent certain animal species from dying out unless something can be done to stop certain things like trophy hunters killing tigers & lions. (I know I added quite a lot in there not only about animals & the good some scientists have done to keep animal species going but also the impact poachers & global warming has on our animals as well as some nature stuff. This was actually a short piece for me.) Some zoos actually treat their animals quite well & I was using the term zoo loosely to also include safari parks, sea life centres & animal sanctuaries. Governments could make animal protection laws or tighten up existing animal protection laws & do more for their people so that they can't get more money for ivory & rhino horn than they can for doing normal jobs & so they can afford to feed their families because these countries are poor (well, the people are. The governments live in the lap of luxury.) & sometimes the public have to choose between doing this & starving. Their governments could also do with bringing in modern medicine because rhino horn is classed as medicine there. I know that I for 1 wouldn't like to see any of these animal species die out & I think that everything possible should be done to prevent this.

What do you think could or should be done in order to prevent certain animal species from becoming extinct?
I don't agree with sealife centres, circuses, safari parks, vivisection, animal testing, anything to do with keeping an animal in captivity is cruel in my opinion, no matter how well they are treated, plus zoos are too commercialised, so rather than having the animals best interest in mind they are making money out of caging animals. Other ways should be found to deal with extinction because if i was a wild animal i would like to take my chance in the wild as nature intended.
 

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I don't agree with sealife centres, circuses, safari parks, vivisection, animal testing, anything to do with keeping an animal in captivity is cruel in my opinion, no matter how well they are treated, plus zoos are too commercialised, so rather than having the animals best interest in mind they are making money out of caging animals. Other ways should be found to deal with extinction because if i was a wild animal i would like to take my chance in the wild as nature intended.
I agree that keeping animals in captivity isn't ideal & in an ideal world other ways of preventing extinction would be found but we don't live in an ideal world unfortunately & I'd rather see the animal species survive than die out. I do agree that they make money from the animals but think that they need some money to feed the animals & look after them. Circuses are no longer cruel because circuses are no longer able to use animals in their shows. I also think that vivisection & animal testing is cruel.

Mind you, on a similar note, in an ideal world don't you think that horses wouldn't have been domesticated in the 1st place but left to live wild? I know that horses were domesticated thousands of years ago to do some work for us & carry us around. Other animals like elephants have also been used as beasts of burden. Reasons why horses were domesticated to carry us & our loads around weren't only because horses are powerful & normally placid animals but also because horses have a similar intelligence to us in that they have the ability to remember things, follow a line of reasoning & make decisions based on what they know. We communicated with them using touch at 1st then we realised that they understood basic language. We even taught horses to dance. There have been many books which have explained good horsemanship. The 1st 1 ever was written by Simon of Athens but it got destroyed. The oldest surviving one is Peri Hippikes (Good horsemanship) which was written by Xenophon. He also wrote "Hippikes gymnasia" which means horse gymnastics. Xenophon believed that to get the best out of your horse you had to be a clever horseman & consider your horses wants & needs as well as your own. He also believed that different horses had different personalities & you had to pick the right horse for the right job which I'd agree with.
 
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Sorry I missed this thread, and your birthday on the 12th, Horsa. :rose: I do think it's an interesting question, and very complicated. I'm with BB and Darth who say they've very much enjoyed going to zoos over the years. They give us, as children (and grown-ups) a great love and empathy for many kinds of animals, which is useful. And they've been greatly improved in the last 40 years, in that they're not merely in cages, but generally in open and very well thought-out enclosures, which hugely consider the needs of the particular animal. We've come a long way from the PT Barnum days of just taking an animal from the wild and exploiting it. A lot of zoos have animals that weren't born in the wild, and couldn't necessarily live there. They also have the opportunity to breed endangered species, in cooperation with other zoos, taking care to not interbreed, etc. It seems to me that now zoos seem to have much more of a mission to animal conservation, rather than just exhibition, and this is a good thing. Let's face it: when we're talking about how we feel about zoos, we're talking about the large animals. Lions, tigers, polar bears and pandas, elephants, leopards, giraffes, etc. No one gives a toss that a tarantula or a python are in a box. My point being, though, that if you can put those big animals, (and the small ones,) in an environment where they are well cared for, and you can make first-world people love them, especially from very young, you have a better chance of saving them from the poachers and the others who actually would exploit them, or the environmental factors that are killing them. The closer contact we have with them, the more we can empathize and care. That's my best argument for good zoos in the 21st C.
 

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I still disagree on all counts, my opinion is that wild animals should be left in the wild. Nothing will convince me differently.
 

Moxie

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I still disagree on all counts, my opinion is that wild animals should be left in the wild. Nothing will convince me differently.
I completely respect this. But I do think you have to realize that not all animals are wrested from the wild. Rather a lot are born in captivity, and, whatever we think about that, we have to take care of them. In the 19th C./-late 20th C. there was a fashion not just for shooting them, but for capturing them, and putting them in circuses, zoos, and variously exploited displays. There are generations of animals that were born in captivity and we have to take care of them. That is complicated, but we have to deal with it. In your earlier post, you mash together a lot of ideas, including vivisection and animal testing. Clearly you are an animal rights person, and I very much am myself, but that is a different question than zoos. I do think that zoos, aquatic parks and even a lot of safari expeditions have taken on the mantel of conservation and protection of animals. Where they don't, they're being called out.
 

Horsa

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Sorry I missed this thread, and your birthday on the 12th, Horsa. :rose: I do think it's an interesting question, and very complicated. I'm with BB and Darth who say they've very much enjoyed going to zoos over the years. They give us, as children (and grown-ups) a great love and empathy for many kinds of animals, which is useful. And they've been greatly improved in the last 40 years, in that they're not merely in cages, but generally in open and very well thought-out enclosures, which hugely consider the needs of the particular animal. We've come a long way from the PT Barnum days of just taking an animal from the wild and exploiting it. A lot of zoos have animals that weren't born in the wild, and couldn't necessarily live there. They also have the opportunity to breed endangered species, in cooperation with other zoos, taking care to not interbreed, etc. It seems to me that now zoos seem to have much more of a mission to animal conservation, rather than just exhibition, and this is a good thing. Let's face it: when we're talking about how we feel about zoos, we're talking about the large animals. Lions, tigers, polar bears and pandas, elephants, leopards, giraffes, etc. No one gives a toss that a tarantula or a python are in a box. My point being, though, that if you can put those big animals, (and the small ones,) in an environment where they are well cared for, and you can make first-world people love them, especially from very young, you have a better chance of saving them from the poachers and the others who actually would exploit them, or the environmental factors that are killing them. The closer contact we have with them, the more we can empathize and care. That's my best argument for good zoos in the 21st C.
It's o.k. Moxie. I agree that the question is complex but I think that it's 1 that needs to be asked. I think governments need to consider this question & decide what they're going to do about it but obviously they'd need to do this co-operatively as a whole. I also loved going to zoos & agree with what you say about them. They also educate people about animals. For example, when I went to a dolphin show at the sea-life centre we got taught about dolphins too. I know books & T.V. programmes teach people about animals but you can't interact with them like you can with a person. Books & T.V. programmes just tell people what they think people want to know. When you're they're you can wait until the show's over & ask questions to find out what you want to know. Part of the money you pay goes towards the upkeep of the animals. I agree that animals in zoos have more freedom nowadays. Talking about those old days & animals there's an old fad that died out which in some cases was cruel & that was the demand for taxidermy. Some people just got taxidermists to stuff their old pets, admittedly but others were cruel & killed the animal just to have it stuffed. I agree with what you have to say about big animals with the exception of Przewalski's horses which are in a sanctuary for their own protection because they're smaller than the normal horse. I agree & enjoyed reading your clever endeavour at answering the question.

By the way, I heard you've got a rare type of ferret in America which would be called a polecat in Britain because it's wild called the black-footed ferret & I know that in some parts of America horses still run wild & free.
 
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Horsa

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I still disagree on all counts, my opinion is that wild animals should be left in the wild. Nothing will convince me differently.
I'd agree in an ideal world but we're not living in an ideal world. I thought the same way as you did at 1 time but then I looked at the bigger problem & thought that someone needed to try to do something about it in order to prevent the extinction of these endangered species.

I respect your opinion & your right to have & air 1 & I'll happily agree to disagree.
 

Horsa

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I completely respect this. But I do think you have to realize that not all animals are wrested from the wild. Rather a lot are born in captivity, and, whatever we think about that, we have to take care of them. In the 19th C./-late 20th C. there was a fashion not just for shooting them, but for capturing them, and putting them in circuses, zoos, and variously exploited displays. There are generations of animals that were born in captivity and we have to take care of them. That is complicated, but we have to deal with it. In your earlier post, you mash together a lot of ideas, including vivisection and animal testing. Clearly you are an animal rights person, and I very much am myself, but that is a different question than zoos. I do think that zoos, aquatic parks and even a lot of safari expeditions have taken on the mantel of conservation and protection of animals. Where they don't, they're being called out.
I'm also a big believer in animal rights.
 

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I completely respect this. But I do think you have to realize that not all animals are wrested from the wild. Rather a lot are born in captivity, and, whatever we think about that, we have to take care of them. In the 19th C./-late 20th C. there was a fashion not just for shooting them, but for capturing them, and putting them in circuses, zoos, and variously exploited displays. There are generations of animals that were born in captivity and we have to take care of them. That is complicated, but we have to deal with it. In your earlier post, you mash together a lot of ideas, including vivisection and animal testing. Clearly you are an animal rights person, and I very much am myself, but that is a different question than zoos. I do think that zoos, aquatic parks and even a lot of safari expeditions have taken on the mantel of conservation and protection of animals. Where they don't, they're being called out.
I respect your views too.
We'll have to agree to disagree though as i stand by my views.
 

Horsa

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I respect your views too.
We'll have to agree to disagree though as i stand by my views.
O.K. & I stand by mine too.

The sea life centre nearest to me actually returns sea animals to the wild that have been tended to if they're capable of fending for themselves again.
 

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O.K. & I stand by mine too.

The sea life centre nearest to me actually returns sea animals to the wild that have been tended to if they're capable of fending for themselves again.
That's great! I've been on a few cruises and it's a wonderful sight to watch dolphins leaping out of the water, they actually play in the waves from ships, magnificent sight.