Serious PC thread

brokenshoelace

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how is the system in their favour? Please explain that to me. How is it in their favour when they are more likely to be jailed for the same crime? When they die in greater numbers in wars or even in every day jobs. When the legal system has been distorted to favour women in divorce... no fault divorce. When by default women are more likely to be given custody of children even when the data clearly shows that after about age 4, fathers have far better outcomes raising children? Where is the advantage please? You keep stating that there's a blatantly obvious advantage. Where?

Someone pointed out the career choices in the most socially advanced countries, particularly Scandinavia where women still target jobs that remuneratively rewarding, despite the opportunities available to them. This isn't about patriarchy, it's about choices. Men take risks because they want to marry and look after their women. The most successful women often don't get married because of hypergamy. It's not the men rejecting them, but the women themselves seeking men more successful than them, and their success has reduced their dating pool. This is the nature of things, not patriarchy. It's who we are as humans. It's primordial. Men would go out hunting to get the meat, and demonstrate his worth to the women. I don't think things are going to change and that's nothing to do with patriarchy. Patriarchy is just the bullshit made up by feminists to secure political power, and it frustrates me that something so blatantly obvious is still overlooked by so many people

How is the system in their favor?

I don't know, I mean, perhaps it's a coincidence that most people in authority are men, and it's by no means the result of centuries of patriarchy.

Or perhaps that the wage gap still exists, even in your precious west?




Yes men die in violent wars. Who's doing the killing again? Is it women? So yeah, men are victims of a system of their own making. Boohoo. Now we can debate how leaders (mostly men) send men to their death in senseless wars, but then we can discuss the military industrial complex/capitalism/etc...

Also, the nature of the risk matters. Yes, men can get falsely accused of rape. Women are more likely to BE RAPED. I don't know, these two don't seem like the same thing to me.

This is just scratching the surface. Again, this is a very outdated conversation, and frankly, very boring. If we're pretending that centuries of head start is not reaping rewards, and men don't continue to benefit, we're being delusional.
 

brokenshoelace

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There is a quote attributed to golfer Gary Player. After holing a long putt somebody in the crowd shouted "Player, you lucky South African"... To which he replied "Yes, the more I practice, the luckier I get".

The point being that to a large degree, you reap what you sow.

I totally take your post on business. You backed yourself and reaped the reward. Most new businesses don"t last 18 months.


I wonder how lucky he would have felt if he were born in Burkina Faso.
 

brokenshoelace

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I think the whole "you reap what you sow" thing is a privileged Western outlook. It doesn't mean it's not true, it just means it's limited. Given what imperial powers continue to do to make sure developing countries never actually, well, develop, it can come off quite a bit condescending.

So yeah, a person from South Africa can feel that it's hard work that brought him to the dance, and it is. It's just that most people in the rest of the world will never ever get the chance to work on a craft they actually enjoy, through no fault of their own.
 

britbox

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Well, a lot of that stuff - merchant capitalism, trade finance and commercial expansion came from the Phoenicians. You'll have to remind me where they were from again?

Reap what you sow refers to the orbit you inhabit. If you hate the west and capitalism so much then why do you use western conventions to measure success? It's the same as using male principles to measure the value of women.

Now if you are saying what happened during the Scramble for Africa was wrong, then I'd agree, as I'm sure would most others who post here. But my ancestors during that period were working down coal mines for a pittance not sitting on a silk cushion from Burkina Faso counting gold.

So I personally don't accept any of your "blame" while recognising that Western oligarchs have done some pretty terrible things... but long before then you had Eastern Oligarchs doing much of the same. But hey, it looks like you've fallen into the same trap - blame these people over here - it's their fault.... distributed by the same media owned by the very same oligarchy. Divide and Rule.
 

brokenshoelace

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Well, a lot of that stuff - merchant capitalism, trade finance and commercial expansion came from the Phoenicians. You'll have to remind me where they were from again?

Reap what you sow refers to the orbit you inhabit. If you hate the west and capitalism so much then why do you use western conventions to measure success? It's the same as using male principles to measure the value of women.

Now if you are saying what happened during the Scramble for Africa was wrong, then I'd agree, as I'm sure would most others who post here. But my ancestors during that period were working down coal mines for a pittance not sitting on a silk cushion from Burkina Faso counting gold.

So I personally don't accept any of your "blame" while recognising that Western oligarchs have done some pretty terrible things... but long before then you had Eastern Oligarchs doing much of the same. But hey, it looks like you've fallen into the same trap - blame these people over here - it's their fault.... distributed by the same media owned by the very same oligarchy. Divide and Rule.

Indeed, the West hardly invented many of the concepts it enforces. I couldn't care less as I don't see how it's relevant to the world we live in today.

"Reap what you sow refers to the orbit you inhabit. If you hate the west and capitalism so much then why do you use western conventions to measure success? It's the same as using male principles to measure the value of women."

Antonio Gramsci touches on this extensively in his theory of cultural hegemony. But to answer in plain English, part of the criticism of capitalism is very much that we have no option but to partake in many of its measures/metrics/etc...It's not as contradictory as you seem to think, but rather, it reinforces the point in a way. Take consumerism as an example.

Nobody is blaming you for anything buddy. I'm well aware your authority over my life starts and ends with your moderation of these forums. No one is asking you to take the fall for the crimes of people who share the color of your skin. Not sure where this strawman came from.

Again, people of all nationalities races have done some pretty horrible things. But the current state of the world seems to be heavily shaped by a specific race. I could yell at Genghis Khan for his bloodthirst and violence, but it's not his money that's funding Israeli fighter jets to bomb brown people in the Middle East, so it's less relevant right now.
 

Federberg

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How is the system in their favor?

I don't know, I mean, perhaps it's a coincidence that most people in authority are men, and it's by no means the result of centuries of patriarchy.

Or perhaps that the wage gap still exists, even in your precious west?




Yes men die in violent wars. Who's doing the killing again? Is it women? So yeah, men are victims of a system of their own making. Boohoo. Now we can debate how leaders (mostly men) send men to their death in senseless wars, but then we can discuss the military industrial complex/capitalism/etc...

Also, the nature of the risk matters. Yes, men can get falsely accused of rape. Women are more likely to BE RAPED. I don't know, these two don't seem like the same thing to me.

This is just scratching the surface. Again, this is a very outdated conversation, and frankly, very boring. If we're pretending that centuries of head start is not reaping rewards, and men don't continue to benefit, we're being delusional.
bwahahaha! The gender pay gap! That's been debunked a zillion times mate. You lost me there...

“The causes of the gender pay gap are complex and overlapping:

  • Fewer women choose the most highly-paid careers
  • More women work part-time (where pay-rates are lower)
  • Fewer women choose to compete for promotion

 

brokenshoelace

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bwahahaha! The gender pay gap! That's been debunked a zillion times mate. You lost me there...

“The causes of the gender pay gap are complex and overlapping:

  • Fewer women choose the most highly-paid careers
  • More women work part-time (where pay-rates are lower)
  • Fewer women choose to compete for promotion



Sooooooo close to getting it.
 

Federberg

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Boomer Tiktok videos is where we're at with this dull conversation.
sigh... I'll post again...

The causes of the gender pay gap are complex and overlapping:

  • Fewer women choose the most highly-paid careers
  • More women work part-time (where pay-rates are lower)
  • Fewer women choose to compete for promotion
 

brokenshoelace

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sigh... I'll post again...

The causes of the gender pay gap are complex and overlapping:

  • Fewer women choose the most highly-paid careers
  • More women work part-time (where pay-rates are lower)
  • Fewer women choose to compete for promotion

And I'll post again...so close to getting it.

Once we delve into the "WHY" for the above, the issue becomes much more nuanced, but again, this is a very boring conversation and the arguments, on both sides (meaning mine as well) are super shallow. It really feels like college students arguing gender wars 101.
 

brokenshoelace

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This is all peer reviewed. Not quite as convincing as TikTok videos mind you, but should be close. Sure, the conversation is nuanced and complex, but to unequivocally state "gender gap has been debunked! LOL" is laughable.
 

mrzz

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How many men get away with sexual assault/rape yearly? Are we serious here?
How many people get away with crimes yearly?

Also, a lot of *false* allegations about sexual assault and rape happen (and it is a LOT, ask any social worker). This gives cover to actual criminals.

Of course there is a lot actual sexual assaults and rapes. Why? A lot of men are absolute beasts, no doubt. Way more than we would like get away with that, true. But we don't need the patriarchy to understand that disgusting part of human nature.
 

Federberg

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This is all peer reviewed. Not quite as convincing as TikTok videos mind you, but should be close. Sure, the conversation is nuanced and complex, but to unequivocally state "gender gap has been debunked! LOL" is laughable.
well actually you're not debunking much here mate. There's a pile of research out there. Some refute the wage gap and others don't. I'm glad the UCL piece actually looks at hourly wages, because most don't. The most quoted pieces, believe it or not, have just focused on a simple average which is absurd because they don't account for overtime. But even then most of these papers don't account for men just being more aggressive asking for pay rises. I've seen it myself. One of the first lessons I learned managing a team at an investment bank was having to console a woman who had been hoping for a significant pay rise. I considered her disappointment to be my personal failure because I had not managed her expectations effectively. She had never once approached me to proactively campaign for a higher raise, while others had done so. In my naivete I assumed she was happy. She wasn't! After that I always made an effort to get a sense of what more passive team members were hoping for, so I could either advocate for them or give them a more realistic sense of what was possible. In Western countries the laws are very clear, for a particular level you can't compensate the genders differently when it comes to starter pay. But over time, in the private sectors, bonuses and pay increases are discretionary, based on performance. What I'm trying to tell you is that without fail, men are more likely to push their case while women generally don't. They just hope that their contributions will be noticed and valued. Men are more likely to sit you down and ask bluntly, what will it take to get a pay rise, I have a young family to look after. These are issues where most of the research fails. So sorry no, you're not really proving anything here
 

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This is all peer reviewed. Not quite as convincing as TikTok videos mind you, but should be close. Sure, the conversation is nuanced and complex, but to unequivocally state "gender gap has been debunked! LOL" is laughable.
Good that you brought peer reviewed articles to the fire, and I could not look at them yet (hopefully will), but two caveats: this is a statistical argument, and a LOT of papers from social sciences were later shown to have done plain wrong statistical analysis.

Also, in the last four or five decades, peer reviewed means less that it once meant. Alan Sokal proved that.
 

brokenshoelace

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How many people get away with crimes yearly?

Also, a lot of *false* allegations about sexual assault and rape happen (and it is a LOT, ask any social worker). This gives cover to actual criminals.

Of course there is a lot actual sexual assaults and rapes. Why? A lot of men are absolute beasts, no doubt. Way more than we would like get away with that, true. But we don't need the patriarchy to understand that disgusting part of human nature.

Among violent crime, statistically, sexual assault/rape is BY FAR the most likely to go either a) unreported, b) unsolved and c) unpunished.

We're really beating around the bush here.

You know what is the second? Again statistically...

Domestic violence.

The third is homicide.

With the first 2, the victims are, overwhelmingly, women.
 

Federberg

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Good that you brought peer reviewed articles to the fire, and I could not look at them yet (hopefully will), but two caveats: this is a statistical argument, and a LOT of papers from social sciences were later shown to have done plain wrong statistical analysis.

Also, in the last four or five decades, peer reviewed means less that it once meant. Alan Sokal proved that.
so true. And I wanted to say it (I've said it before, the peer review systems is corrupt now, as ideologues have infiltrated universities), but felt it would be called an excuse
 

britbox

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Antonio Gramsci touches on this extensively in his theory of cultural hegemony. But to answer in plain English, part of the criticism of capitalism is very much that we have no option but to partake in many of its measures/metrics/etc...It's not as contradictory as you seem to think, but rather, it reinforces the point in a way. Take consumerism as an example
OK, so I presume you're coming at this from a Marxist angle based on the Gramsci reference. You argue that capitalism forces us into consumerist habits but you can actually limit your participation in many things related to consumerism. I'm not suggesting you can be completely free of it, but you can certainly manage your involvement and change how you interact with it - i.e. Buy refurbished goods, use sharing platforms, support the “right‑to‑repair” campaign, and simply limit consumption.

If we tie that to our own habits using a specific example, I'll ask you a question (you don't actually need to answer - just think about it)... how many smartphones have you gone through? And you may think, in the grand scheme of things, this is meaningless, but micro‑actions by the many soon add up and get noticed, because each device embeds us deeper in a global extractive system.

Anyway back to Marxism. My understanding is that Marx sees it as lifecycle process - feudalism, capitalism, socialism, communism. Right?

Now (as it stands), the issue with Marxism for me is that (in my opinion) you have to eliminate desire... and the state cannot do it. Only individuals can eliminate desire - the ability to conquer yourself, if you will. Marx doesn't say this, it's my theory - and why Marxism will never have a smooth landing. Marx focuses on alienation... but many can also get alienated by the loss of property or goods if they've spent their life working for it in a different system. So will be alienated by Marxism...

Also, the problem is many adherents to his principles can seem to be angry revolutionaries who (if successful) have (historically) imposed an ideology by force upon populations who are not in a position to accept it. The worst examples from some self-identified Marxist regimes have involved millions of deaths carried out by an authoritarian state - i.e The Bolsheviks, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao.

Then we get the excuse of "that wasn't real communism, they got it wrong, we'll do it better next time".
Admittedly we could differentiate between Marxism and State Socialism, but even so...it will seem that until the populace conquers itself, Communism can never work in the long term unless held together by force.

You mentioned Late Stage Capitalism in an earlier post, so changing the focus slightly - a lot of people are noticing the long march through the institutions as espoused by the Marxist Doctrine, the degradation of civic institutions, Common Purpose masquerading as something it isn't, degradation of the family units.

Couple this with the fact that history rhymes - many feel something is rather off. The oligarchs know. Stakeholder Capitalism has already been identified by the WEF as the incoming replacement. To me, this reads as fascism for the few governing communism for the many. No middle class. It rather seems like serfdom revisited.

What would work? Maybe you'll say it's Pure Marxism. I disagree for the reasons outlined above. More likely a hybrid blend of several doctrines. Capitalism won't work on its own as it eats its own tail, and Marxism hasn't worked in the past because its had to be enforced by a bloated state (IMO). I always believed in a mixed economy with strong antitrust commissions, robust environmental legislation, and public ownership of essential assets such as electricity and water. Basically strong checks and balances against exploitation of people and resources.
 

Federberg

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Among violent crime, statistically, sexual assault/rape is BY FAR the most likely to go either a) unreported, b) unsolved and c) unpunished.

We're really beating around the bush here.

You know what is the second? Again statistically...

Domestic violence.

The third is homicide.

With the first 2, the victims are, overwhelmingly, women.
it's known that a lot of these crimes are vastly under-reported by men. We've talked about this already.

If I had done some of the things women have done to me, I would have a criminal record. Because for sure they would have reported me to the police. But that's the thing.... women are allowed to get away with so much. When a woman gropes a man it's ok, hell! Some would say he's lucky.
 
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