US Politics Thread

Federberg

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You believe in conspiracies all of a sudden? :yahoo:

Surely not. Only when the "other side" does it, right?

You did surprise me a little (positively) then I did a quick lookup - and our favourite Rhodes scholar Ms Maddow has been chanting that mantra for the last year or so. What a disappointment - I thought you'd made a leap.
Does Project 2025 qualify as a conspiracy theory? I thought the document was widely disseminated. The only issue was whether the campaign wanted to be associated with it explicitly or not
 
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britbox

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Does Project 2025 qualify as a conspiracy theory? I thought the document was widely disseminated. The only issue was whether the campaign wanted to be associated with it explicitly or not
The think tank disseminated it. Has the administration confirmed it? I thought they'd denied it. Many things are in the public domain like Agenda 2030 at the UN who appointed the WEF as their partners. Nearly all countries have signed up to it, yet whenever I mention it, or the role of these external actors and the potential ramifications then it's deemed a "conspiracy theory".

The tipping point will be the US Constitution - I don't really see how it can walk hand in hand with Agenda 2030. Sure, some people will point to elements not being legally binding... but still...
 

Moxie

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You believe in conspiracies all of a sudden? :yahoo:

Surely not. Only when the "other side" does it, right?

You did surprise me a little (positively) then I did a quick lookup - and our favourite Rhodes scholar Ms Maddow has been chanting that mantra for the last year or so. What a disappointment - I thought you'd made a leap.
Again, with the condescending remarks about my opinion. First of all, it was @tented who made us aware around here of Project 2025, way before anyone was really talking about it. We even brought it back to give him the credit when the media finally picked up on it.

Secondly, I agree with Federberg that it's not a conspiracy theory. It may have felt a bit like one in the beginning, since a think tank wrote a playbook for the Republicans, should they win the election, to do some dark and damaging things, but it was there to be read, and, although the Trump campaign disavowed it, they have been following it. But certainly it's never been theoretical. Perhaps we should discuss terms.
 
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Moxie

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I think he uses racism as a weapon of mass distraction. I think he’s a sociopath, he’ll use anything or anyone to achieve his personal goals. Today it’s distracting from Epstein
Neither of us can ever know what is in Trump's black little heart, but his racist tropes and dog whistles are more than "distractions," for sure. I don't even think they function as distractions, for either side. But they keep some members of his far-right racist base happy. But more than mean-spirited memes and comments, he's instituted racist policies. It's very clear that part of the platform is to "Make America White Again."

His daddy was a racist, and Donald, according family members, uses racist and anti-Semitic language, even recently.
 

britbox

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Again, with the condescending remarks about my opinion. First of all, it was @tented who made us aware around here of Project 2025, way before anyone was really talking about it. We even brought it back to give him the credit when the media finally picked up on it.

Secondly, I agree with Federberg that it's not a conspiracy theory. It may have felt a bit like one in the beginning, since a think tank wrote a playbook for the Republicans, should they win the election, to do some dark and damaging things, but it was there to be read, and, although the Trump campaign disavowed it, they have been following it. But certainly it's never been theoretical. Perhaps we should discuss terms.
Many "conspiracy theories" aren't theories at all when you dig a little deeper and join a few dots. So officially Trump says his administration aren't using Project 2025 as a blueprint but you're suggesting that they are, right?

I've seen Project 2025 before - I did a course on the US Constitution from one of the contributing organisations. What you're saying is interesting because I've suggested most Western nations are loosely following a Davos/WEF/UN blueprint which is essentially the opposite of the Project 2025. One being a globalist template (Davos) and the other being more of a national sovereignty template.

You've said before the US Constitution is what binds Americans and I think that's largely incompatible with the Davos/WEF/UN approach, so it'll be interesting how this plays out.

Which elements of Project 2025 do you find the most disconcerting?
 

Moxie

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Many "conspiracy theories" aren't theories at all when you dig a little deeper and join a few dots.
They often are, though, when the "joins" involve leaps, as @mrzz says. I do suggest we discuss the term, though, all together.
So officially Trump says his administration aren't using Project 2025 as a blueprint but you're suggesting that they are, right?
They no longer distance themselves from it, and are following it pretty closely. I'm sure you've read enough about it to see that, but it's pretty clear to see here;

I've seen Project 2025 before - I did a course on the US Constitution from one of the contributing organisations. What you're saying is interesting because I've suggested most Western nations are loosely following a Davos/WEF/UN blueprint which is essentially the opposite of the Project 2025. One being a globalist template (Davos) and the other being more of a national sovereignty template.

You've said before the US Constitution is what binds Americans and I think that's largely incompatible with the Davos/WEF/UN approach, so it'll be interesting how this plays out.

Which elements of Project 2025 do you find the most disconcerting?
I think the dismantling of many bureaucratic agencies in favor of loyalists to head them, and basically no one with any real experience under them to do the work. They've hollowed out DOJ and FBI. He's dismantling Education. He's turned the Department of Health and Human Services into a wasteland of pseudo-science under RFK, Jr., who has dismissed real scientists. We need experienced bureaucrats to help run this country, and we've lost way too many of them. Elon Musk was firing people wholesale, and then even having to try to rake some back when it was realized that we still needed them.

I think his quest to get rid of DEI is really just a cover for firing people of color who were qualified for their jobs, and replacing them with massively under-qualified and mainly white people. Pete Hegseth who runs the Dept. of Defense particularly disconcerts me in his bravado which tries to substitute for knowing what he's doing.

And overall, the ambition to consolidate power in the President, which is leaning towards the authoritarian now. And because of the justices Trump put in in his first term, they seem more than prepared to back him, Constitution be damned.

That would be a start.
 

britbox

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They often are, though, when the "joins" involve leaps, as @mrzz says. I do suggest we discuss the term, though, all together.

They no longer distance themselves from it, and are following it pretty closely. I'm sure you've read enough about it to see that, but it's pretty clear to see here;


I think the dismantling of many bureaucratic agencies in favor of loyalists to head them, and basically no one with any real experience under them to do the work. They've hollowed out DOJ and FBI. He's dismantling Education. He's turned the Department of Health and Human Services into a wasteland of pseudo-science under RFK, Jr., who has dismissed real scientists. We need experienced bureaucrats to help run this country, and we've lost way too many of them. Elon Musk was firing people wholesale, and then even having to try to rake some back when it was realized that we still needed them.

I think his quest to get rid of DEI is really just a cover for firing people of color who were qualified for their jobs, and replacing them with massively under-qualified and mainly white people. Pete Hegseth who runs the Dept. of Defense particularly disconcerts me in his bravado which tries to substitute for knowing what he's doing.

And overall, the ambition to consolidate power in the President, which is leaning towards the authoritarian now. And because of the justices Trump put in in his first term, they seem more than prepared to back him, Constitution be damned.

That would be a start.
Some of those changes could be championed in some respects (by any party). I can certainly see an opposite argument that also makes sense on some specific issues.

i.e. The argument for dismantling some of the bureaucratic agencies could be made in a positive light. (by any side in power). If an executive cannot move through the policies they have been elected upon because of a bureaucracy then the bureaucracy is actually a problem. Elected UK politicians have bemoaned the same issue.

Then we have a common issue that all elected parties try to fill bureaucracies with staff who are friendly to their agenda. This isn't new. There is a lengthy interview with one of Reagan's advisors about the Dept. Education being stuffed with anti-conservative staff decades ago and they felt it difficult to change.

Actually, most so-called Conservatives complain of leftist agendas in Education. I guess Project 2025 are trying to redress the balance or tip the scales in the opposite direction. I understand why you wouldn't like it but it's not really novel. Conservatives typically don't like big bloated Government and disdain the "Hello, I'm from the Government, I'm here to help" mantra.

I'd wait on the Health stuff for a while before making judgement. I'm sorry - a huge number of people are looking for alternatives to Big Pharma and so-called "Real Science" in the Health sector. Health in the west is pretty awful - and the system is inherently corrupt. Alternative networks are already springing up on the downlow.

Why do you need DEI at all? Just hire the best people... and make sure you great opportunities for disadvantaged groups to excel. Not guarantee - Opportunity. Now if you are saying he is hiring bad people then that's a different discussion. You could dislike both DEI and the appointments.

I think we're on the same page about authoritarianism. Your constitution is in theory an excellent piece of work... but these executive orders should be used sparingly and in emergency - not become a default. (That was also happening before Trump, but has been amplified). Project 2025 actually promotes the checks and balances if you study the text.
 

brokenshoelace

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The Mossad bit comes from Tucker Carlson and is most likely inaccurate.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, one second, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ah yes, a math teacher with proven ties to Israel holds blackmail material over the most powerful men in the world, who are all incidentally hell bent on defending Israel at all cost, no matter what, no matter the situation, sometimes to their own detriment, but yes, it's "most likely inaccurate." It's just complete coincidence that Bibi openly controls Trump.

Robert Maxwell and Ehud Barak are complete coincidences too. Leaked emails show Epstein arranging meetings between Barak and Ivorian government figures to establish a security operation between Israel and the Ivory Coast, but yes, that's perfectly normal networking that any math teacher/pedophile possesses. The problem with Americans is they refuse to learn anything from history.

You throw words like "conspiracy theory" as an automatic ad-hominem so you can run away from the slightest bit of discomfort. How's this for conspiracy theory: Imagine the world's strongest imperial powerhouse invading a Middle Eastern country exclusively on the claims of Weapons of Mass Destruction only to find out that the government made it all up and they just went there for oil...what kind of an idiotic conspiracy theory believing moron would believe that, right?
 
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brokenshoelace

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I'm not saying this to be cute...I'm genuinely astounded at how dumb Americans are. Ah yes, the president of the most rich, powerful, imperial and violent empire in history is a decent man. Yes, "decent men" as we all know, often reach those types of positions. Washington, as everyone knows, is notorious for rewarding honesty and decency.
 
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brokenshoelace

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Let's get this clear - I never said there was an Illuminati holding monthly macabre meetings - so there is no leap and you don't need to invent one. I've said there are obvious hidden power structures involved in manipulating politics. This isn't guesswork - there are masses of research crossing politics, religions, finance, science about exoteric and esoteric forms of influence and many of these groups will probably be competing and not co-ordinated. There are also a multitude of power groups, NGOs and think tanks who aren't even hidden, and openly admitting they are doing it.

That's precisely it. The problem with those who throw "conspiracy theorist" as a disqualifying quasi-insult, is that they often think of the over the top caricature lizard people controlling the world narrative. Yeah, most conspiracy theorists are morons but guess what, most people are. They're not any special in that regard.

What the conspiracy naysayers fail to understand is that you don't need people in power to openly or secretly collude (although we're seeing both happen before our very eyes). They don't need to co-ordinate (although they are in many places). They know what's good for them, and their interests are almost always intertwined, hence late stage capitalism. Yeah, yeah, I threw a leftist term that everyone will hate me for.
 
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britbox

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That's precisely it. The problem with those who throw "conspiracy theorist" as a disqualifying quasi-insult, is that they often think of the over the top caricature lizard people controlling the world narrative. Yeah, most conspiracy theorists are morons but guess what, most people are. They're not any special in that regard.

What the conspiracy naysayers fail to understand is that you don't need people in power to openly or secretly collude (although we're seeing both happen before our very eyes). They don't need to co-ordinate (although they are in many places). They know what's good for them, and their interests are almost always intertwined, hence late stage capitalism. Yeah, yeah, I threw a leftist term that everyone will hate me for.
:clap: That was good. I literally laughed out loud.
 
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britbox

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, one second, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ah yes, a math teacher with proven ties to Israel holds blackmail material over the most powerful men in the world, who are all incidentally hell bent on defending Israel at all cost, no matter what, no matter the situation, sometimes to their own detriment, but yes, it's "most likely inaccurate." It's just complete coincidence that Bibi openly controls Trump.

Robert Maxwell and Ehud Barak are complete coincidences too. Leaked emails show Epstein arranging meetings between Barak and Ivorian government figures to establish a security operation between Israel and the Ivory Coast, but yes, that's perfectly normal networking that any math teacher/pedophile possesses. The problem with Americans is they refuse to learn anything from history.

You throw words like "conspiracy theory" as an automatic ad-hominem so you can run away from the slightest bit of discomfort. How's this conspiracy theory: Imagine the world's most powerful imperial powerhouse invading an Middle Eastern country exclusively on the claims of Weapons of Mass Destruction only to find out that the government made it all up and they just went there for oil...what kind of a idiotic conspiracy theory believing moron would believe that right?
I'm concerned that my maths teacher was a bit of an underachiever. He never once got involved in international espionage. As far as I know, at least.
 

Kieran

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These idiots.. :lulz1:



Our biggest hope is that these insurgents are not too bright..
 

Moxie

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, one second, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ah yes, a math teacher with proven ties to Israel holds blackmail material over the most powerful men in the world, who are all incidentally hell bent on defending Israel at all cost, no matter what, no matter the situation, sometimes to their own detriment, but yes, it's "most likely inaccurate." It's just complete coincidence that Bibi openly controls Trump.

Robert Maxwell and Ehud Barak are complete coincidences too. Leaked emails show Epstein arranging meetings between Barak and Ivorian government figures to establish a security operation between Israel and the Ivory Coast, but yes, that's perfectly normal networking that any math teacher/pedophile possesses. The problem with Americans is they refuse to learn anything from history.

You throw words like "conspiracy theory" as an automatic ad-hominem so you can run away from the slightest bit of discomfort. How's this for conspiracy theory: Imagine the world's strongest imperial powerhouse invading a Middle Eastern country exclusively on the claims of Weapons of Mass Destruction only to find out that the government made it all up and they just went there for oil...what kind of an idiotic conspiracy theory believing moron would believe that, right?
I've tried to find some evidence of it, including before I replied to you, and not one credible source. But, somehow you know. Tell me this then, since you have all the intel: was it Mossad that killed him?
 

brokenshoelace

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I've tried to find some evidence of it, including before I replied to you, and not one credible source. But, somehow you know. Tell me this then, since you have all the intel: was it Mossad that killed him?

What a strawman. I never mentioned anything about the Mossad killing him. I don't know. There's you answer.
 

Moxie

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What a strawman. I never mentioned anything about the Mossad killing him. I don't know. There's you answer.
It was a serious question, no straw man. Jaysus. When we woke up to the then local news that he'd killed himself at Riker's or wherever, everyone rolled their eyes here.

But do tell me, what IS the Mossad connection? Did he need that AND the underage girls to gain influence and blackmail rich men?
 
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Moxie

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I'm not saying this to be cute...I'm genuinely astounded at how dumb Americans are. Ah yes, the president of the most rich, powerful, imperial and violent empire in history is a decent man. Yes, "decent men" as we all know, often reach those types of positions. Washington, as everyone knows, is notorious for rewarding honesty and decency.
I guess when you say above that "most people are morons," you don`t include yourself, as you clearly deem yourself qualified to judge everyone else. ;)
 

Moxie

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Some of those changes could be championed in some respects (by any party). I can certainly see an opposite argument that also makes sense on some specific issues.

i.e. The argument for dismantling some of the bureaucratic agencies could be made in a positive light. (by any side in power). If an executive cannot move through the policies they have been elected upon because of a bureaucracy then the bureaucracy is actually a problem. Elected UK politicians have bemoaned the same issue.
We already discussed this rather in depth when Trump was forming a cabinet, and had Elon Musk dismantling the bureaucracies, but I'll give you a flavor of my own positions. Sure, I agree that governmental agencies can do with some streamlining and paring, but judiciously, not the slash-and-burn approach that Musk was taking. He did it without any respect for the work that each agency does, nor care that there is value in career professionals running things. And, including with an eye to getting out women and men of color, which is just racist, in the name of "curing us" from the "wokeism" of DEI. They specifically sought to dismantle much of the Federal government. Because they basically have no understanding of nor respect for what it does.

This is a huge country. We need a certain amount of centralized government to keep it together in a coherent way.
Then we have a common issue that all elected parties try to fill bureaucracies with staff who are friendly to their agenda. This isn't new. There is a lengthy interview with one of Reagan's advisors about the Dept. Education being stuffed with anti-conservative staff decades ago and they felt it difficult to change.
Generally, the President picks people to head them who serve his agenda, but doesn't decimate the rank and file. Also, I'm sorry, but Trump chose a lot of rather unqualified people, and he had the Senate to confirm them. Some Republican senators have spoken of regrets, in hindsight. Certainly, past presidents have chosen like-minded people, but Trump chose yes-men and -women, with no regard to qualifications.
Actually, most so-called Conservatives complain of leftist agendas in Education. I guess Project 2025 are trying to redress the balance or tip the scales in the opposite direction. I understand why you wouldn't like it but it's not really novel. Conservatives typically don't like big bloated Government and disdain the "Hello, I'm from the Government, I'm here to help" mantra.
If a President wants to have some say over the Education agenda, he's going to need a Federal Dept. of Education. The complaint has been mainly about higher education, which is not controlled by the Dept. of Ed. Neither, frankly is the K-12 curriculum, which is more by the states. But the Fed helps with fair access, and funding. Dismantling the DOE has nothing to do with controlling agenda.
I'd wait on the Health stuff for a while before making judgement. I'm sorry - a huge number of people are looking for alternatives to Big Pharma and so-called "Real Science" in the Health sector. Health in the west is pretty awful - and the system is inherently corrupt. Alternative networks are already springing up on the downlow.
I knew this could be a bone of contention between us, so let's save it for later, if you like. But RFK, Jr. is not qualified for the job, and is sowing some chaos. He's fired a lot of qualified people. He discourages vaccines, and measles cases are high in the US.
Why do you need DEI at all? Just hire the best people... and make sure you great opportunities for disadvantaged groups to excel. Not guarantee - Opportunity. Now if you are saying he is hiring bad people then that's a different discussion. You could dislike both DEI and the appointments.
I did say he's hiring bad people. Incompetent. Replacing very good people. Trump, and some like him, think that DEI means hiring less-competent people just because they are of color. The actual intent is to get people in the mix who have historically been passed over. A more diverse field offers better people. The policy need not last forever, but it does take some initiative to get people to step up in hiring with an open mind. The military is a good example. Run forever by men, their inclination was to believe that the best person for the job was a man. Yet, women have proven to make very good leaders, including in the higher ranks of the military. You say, "Just hire the best people." But that depends on who is doing the hiring, and what there preconceptions are, right? Some people need a little help with the opening of their minds.
I think we're on the same page about authoritarianism. Your constitution is in theory an excellent piece of work... but these executive orders should be used sparingly and in emergency - not become a default. (That was also happening before Trump, but has been amplified). Project 2025 actually promotes the checks and balances if you study the text.
I'm glad we're on the same page about authoritarianism. Trump has signed 225 executive orders in just over a year into this term. Compared to 220 in his first 4 years, and 162 in Biden's 4 years. It's too many. I honestly don't see where Project 2025 is in favor of anything other than an imperial presidency. I think it means to dismantle them. Or in any case Trump is. Frankly, the playbook doesn't matter anymore. Trump is doing what he wants. He has a compliant House and Senate, and while some lesser judges are trying to rein him in, the Supreme Court had already given him a lot of power before he even started. What checks and balances? He's trying to cancel the midterms, or control the outcome, which he expects will go against him. That Constitution and we, The People, better be made of some stern stuff.
 
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