US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

nope. Sorry but no. Not in the least bit pissy. I actually find your school monitor mode hilarious, or let me be a bit clearer, I find your inability to stop doing it funny. I enjoy calling it out. Step away from yourself

So you think post utter rubbish is fine, though?

 

[Federberg]

So you think post utter rubbish is fine, though?

lol! If you want to call it utter rubbish that's your opinion, until you provide facts to challenge it. What I found interesting was the idea that removing a number of cities would dramatically alter US statistics. Those guys might have been hyperbolic, but... is there anything to the basic concept? Add that to another throwaway stat that only a very limited number of criminals are responsible for most of the crime in metropolitan areas and some very interesting, and serious questions should be asked.

BTW if you had just responded by saying that's garbage it would have been useful. What isn't worth anyone's time is.. your school monitoring asking other posters if they've done their homework. Lol! I mean seriously! Check yourself. Appointing yourself to a position of authority that only exists in your mind

 

[Moxie]

lol! If you want to call it utter rubbish that's your opinion, until you provide facts to challenge it. What I found interesting was the idea that removing a number of cities would dramatically alter US statistics. Those guys might have been hyperbolic, but... is there anything to the basic concept? Add that to another throwaway stat that only a very limited number of criminals are responsible for most of the crime in metropolitan areas and some very interesting, and serious questions should be asked.

BTW if you had just responded by saying that's garbage it would have been useful. What isn't worth anyone's time is.. your school monitoring asking other posters if they've done their homework. Lol! I mean seriously! Check yourself. Appointing yourself to a position of authority that only exists in your mind

I asked you a simple question, as I was traveling and wondered if it would be worth trying to watch the video. Then I merely stated that statistics can be compared in various ways, so I was curious about that. Mrzz DID in fact question those guys, as he had several countries in mind that would be ahead of the US in murder rate. (And he's right.) Then you blew a gasket at me. I'm not "monitoring" you, I asked you a question about something you posted.

I got home, and watched the video and tried to look into it. I told you it's really hard to see where they've come up with these statistics, meaning I DID look into it.

Those guys ARE being hyperbolic. I think the point they're trying to make is that cities with more tight gun control laws still have high murder rates. Their methodology is both mostly opaque (unless they fleshed it out in a longer clip of that episode,) and flawed in what can be gleaned. Not all murders are committed with guns. But probably most are, in the US, so let's just go with that. But they also didn't pick the Top 5 cities in the US with the highest murder rates per 100,000 pop. They cherry-picked them for very blue states, though they threw in St. Louis, because it's #2 on the list, and is a blue city in a red state. Note that Philadelphia is #23 on the list. (I'm using this list from Wikipedia because it's the clearest, with a good chart

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So let's leave them aside, and just explore the questions within that we find interesting. I'm down with that. Mrzz says that the problem in general is with the giant megalopolis. (Except that the top cities on the US list tend to the more medium-sized cities. New York City is #127 on that list, for example.) Or, we could ask What happens if you extract the Top 5 murder capitals of the US, what happens to the US on the list of murder rates in the world? Personally, as far as the US goes, I'm curious about the rise in crime in smaller towns and rural areas. In the area of NH where I have a family home, (and I know that area for my whole life,) there has been a huge uptick in violent crime since the beginning of the opioid crisis, which I think starts with Oxicodone, and includes fentanyl. An example:

MSN

This is a chart ranking countries by murder rate:

Countries by Murder Rate (2025 Ranking) - The Facts Institute

A global ranking of countries by murder rate, based on the latest international data on intentional homicides per 100,000 people.

factsinstitute.com

 

[mrzz]

. (Except that the top cities on the US list tend to the more medium-sized cities. New York City is #127 on that list, for example.)

Interesting. Here in Brazil, and in most of South America, crime (and violent crime) is quite correlated to the size of the cities. There are, of course, a few points out of the curve, but the pattern is clear. Large cities here mean giant swaths of powerty with basically no presence of the state, which you don't get there in the US, at least not in the scale that we unfortunately have here.

Do you happen to remember if the other crime statistics follow that same trend, with medium sized cities leading the way? Or was it "just" murder? I am still impressed by this...

 

[Moxie]

Interesting. Here in Brazil, and in most of South America, crime (and violent crime) is quite correlated to the size of the cities. There are, of course, a few points out of the curve, but the pattern is clear. Large cities here mean giant swaths of powerty with basically no presence of the state, which you don't get there in the US, at least not in the scale that we unfortunately have here.

Do you happen to remember if the other crime statistics follow that same trend, with medium sized cities leading the way? Or was it "just" murder? I am still impressed by this...

I don't have to remember it. If you go to the same chart, you can click on other crimes, like rape and assault, and see what cities lead. They still tend to be smaller cities.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your point about the presence of the state (or lack of) is interesting. In larger cities in the US, the state and city governments have been dealing with the "megalopolis" for decades, even many of them. They have to deal with a great wealth disparity. Please/appease the rich, but feed and care for the poor, to keep the balance. They have the infrastructure and the social services to handle their population.

Large and mid-sized cities in the US tend to be liberal or at least more liberal than the rest of the state, even in very Republican ones, like Missouri. Which is a reason why cities in "Red" states, like St. Louis, have rather stricter gun laws than the overall lax ones in their state. But St. Louis is in Missouri, which is very Republican, and there is only so much they can do, and they have a very high murder rate. St. Louis ranks #80 in US cities by population, but #2 in murder rates per capita. Actually, Birmingham, Alabama is #1 on the murder rate list, per capital, and #132 on the population list. And Alabama is a very Republican state.

It's probably less about gun control laws than about social services and the state spending for things including like cops.

That's all just really a scattershot effort, but it's a start.

 

[Federberg]

I asked you a simple question, as I was traveling and wondered if it would be worth trying to watch the video. Then I merely stated that statistics can be compared in various ways, so I was curious about that. Mrzz DID in fact question those guys, as he had several countries in mind that would be ahead of the US in murder rate. (And he's right.) Then you blew a gasket at me. I'm not "monitoring" you, I asked you a question about something you posted.

I got home, and watched the video and tried to look into it. I told you it's really hard to see where they've come up with these statistics, meaning I DID look into it.

Those guys ARE being hyperbolic. I think the point they're trying to make is that cities with more tight gun control laws still have high murder rates. Their methodology is both mostly opaque (unless they fleshed it out in a longer clip of that episode,) and flawed in what can be gleaned. Not all murders are committed with guns. But probably most are, in the US, so let's just go with that. But they also didn't pick the Top 5 cities in the US with the highest murder rates per 100,000 pop. They cherry-picked them for very blue states, though they threw in St. Louis, because it's #2 on the list, and is a blue city in a red state. Note that Philadelphia is #23 on the list. (I'm using this list from Wikipedia because it's the clearest, with a good chart

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So let's leave them aside, and just explore the questions within that we find interesting. I'm down with that. Mrzz says that the problem in general is with the giant megalopolis. (Except that the top cities on the US list tend to the more medium-sized cities. New York City is #127 on that list, for example.) Or, we could ask What happens if you extract the Top 5 murder capitals of the US, what happens to the US on the list of murder rates in the world? Personally, as far as the US goes, I'm curious about the rise in crime in smaller towns and rural areas. In the area of NH where I have a family home, (and I know that area for my whole life,) there has been a huge uptick in violent crime since the beginning of the opioid crisis, which I think starts with Oxicodone, and includes fentanyl. An example:

MSN

This is a chart ranking countries by murder rate:

Countries by Murder Rate (2025 Ranking) - The Facts Institute

A global ranking of countries by murder rate, based on the latest international data on intentional homicides per 100,000 people.

factsinstitute.com

lol! There you go again.. I blew a gasket. Where? When? Stop trying to frame my responses in emotional terms. I'm not a girl

I obviously noted the political bias in their clip, but what caught my attention was the possibility that eliminating a few cities would dramatically alter the murder rate for the whole country. That was interesting to me. It would have been more constructive for you to present this response in the first place. The rest was just a waste of both our time

Your point re: the growth in drug use in smaller cities is interesting. As you suggest they are most likely less equipped to deal with these types of problems than larger better funded mega-cities. Honestly please stop trying to frame everything in an adversarial context. Half the time I even agree with you! I've said it many times, but it doesn't seem to have reached you yet, I don't align myself with either Democratic or Republican politics, there are aspects of both parties that fit for me, but those parties values are constantly in flux while my personal values are relatively stable. I'm not going to change my values because some political party has seen fit to change.

Sometimes it's simply about the exchange of ideas or to share what's being put out there in social media for the forum to critique. We can talk about it, agree or disagree without trying to discern underlying motivations

 

[Federberg]

Here's an example... I actually agree with what Pelosi said here. I'm not the one who changed!

 

[Moxie]

lol! There you go again.. I blew a gasket. Where? When? Stop trying to frame my responses in emotional terms. I'm not a girl

I obviously noted the political bias in their clip, but what caught my attention was the possibility that eliminating a few cities would dramatically alter the murder rate for the whole country. That was interesting to me. It would have been more constructive for you to present this response in the first place. The rest was just a waste of both our time

Your point re: the growth in drug use in smaller cities is interesting. As you suggest they are most likely less equipped to deal with these types of problems than larger better funded mega-cities. Honestly please stop trying to frame everything in an adversarial context. Half the time I even agree with you! I've said it many times, but it doesn't seem to have reached you yet, I don't align myself with either Democratic or Republican politics, there are aspects of both parties that fit for me, but those parties values are constantly in flux while my personal values are relatively stable. I'm not going to change my values because some political party has seen fit to change.

Sometimes it's simply about the exchange of ideas or to share what's being put out there in social media for the forum to critique. We can talk about it, agree or disagree without trying to discern underlying motivations

Honestly, mate, you're the one who has been overreacting here. Call it girlish, if you like, though I'd say it's mannish ego. You can't seem to even address us trying to bring it back to a conversation without whining. I DO know you can be open to both sides, and I do know that you and I can agree. But I don't see how I was supposed to eke out a full conversation from your little clip without some context from you. You could help us with an opinion. I wasn't trying to politicize the clip, just explain where it was coming from. To give us someplace to go. Which is what Mrzz was doing, too.

I do think that the rise in crime in mid-sized cities and in rural areas has a lot to do with the rise of Trump's kind of populism in the US. Lack of work, rampant drug use, hopelessness amongst some, and so they cling on to Trump's message. The problem now is that Trump is untethered from his promises to his voters, and they are becoming disgruntled. Some still try to support him, but they do not care about Greenland. They want him to focus on their pocketbook issues, which he has all but abandoned. Along with their health care. He's preparing everyone for a loss at the midterms, and putting the onus of dealing with the economic message and healthcare on the candidates. Because he's too bored with it. He came on tv today to make some very low energy plea for folks to understand what he's doing. Drowsy Don, is it? Insisting the economy is doing amazing, just as the markets tank.

He's going to claim that the elections were stolen when the Republicans do poorly in November, and I hope he doesn't use his power to overturn them, or, worse, stop them from happening at all.

 

[Federberg]

Honestly, mate, you're the one who has been overreacting here. Call it girlish, if you like, though I'd say it's mannish ego. You can't seem to even address us trying to bring it back to a conversation without whining.

lol! Ego. I'll leave it there. Because I know you need to feel you've won. I really don't care.

But please don't lie and claim you're part of bringing it back to a conversation. That was Mrzz responding to my original post. One could argue that you were the only person that took it from the actual topic. You'll argue the point I know, despite the fact anyone can re-read the whole thread and it's confirmed. Anyway enough!

 

[Federberg]

where are the traditional Republicans who used to get bent out of shape because of Federal encroachment of States rights advocating for the 10th Amendment in Minnesota. They like to talk about TDS, but what about FoT (fear of Trump)? Seems to me that's at least as powerful a thing

 

[Federberg]

well worth listening to this. Also Macron's speech was pretty good too..

 

[Federberg]

Imagine if Sleepy Joe had said this?

 

[mrzz]

I don't have to remember it. If you go to the same chart, you can click on other crimes, like rape and assault, and see what cities lead. They still tend to be smaller cities.

Yep, I played with it a bit. The dynamics is completely different than Brazil's. That is why it is so hard to think of "magic" solutions to crime. Different places have different realities and ask for different approaches.

One important point (which is actually mentioned in the source you provided) is that is important to take into account if you are looking at a city which is part of a larger population urban area. But, even taking that into account, medium sized cities in the US seem to have a very fair share of the crimes. That is surprising to me. Hope I can find the time to look for similar stats for European cities.

 

[Moxie]

well worth listening to this. Also Macron's speech was pretty good too..

Fantastic speech from the Canadian PM. Thanks for posting that, as I had heard about it, (and the standing O,) so I was going to look it up. He's eloquent, and makes great sense, and trolled the US without naming it. He gives hope that good can still come out of this disruption of the world order.

 

[Moxie]

Yep, I played with it a bit. The dynamics is completely different than Brazil's. That is why it is so hard to think of "magic" solutions to crime. Different places have different realities and ask for different approaches.

One important point (which is actually mentioned in the source you provided) is that is important to take into account if you are looking at a city which is part of a larger population urban area. But, even taking that into account, medium sized cities in the US seem to have a very fair share of the crimes. That is surprising to me. Hope I can find the time to look for similar stats for European cities.

As I said, I think the problem in the US, in smaller cities, and even small towns, has a lot do with drug use, lack of jobs, and some general hopelessness in the rural areas, where options for work have dwindled. Trump's ham-fisted approach to the problem is to attack Venezuela. Even if it were the source of the drugs that plague the US, you don't cure addiction by cutting off a supply chain. What we need is an aggressive approach to the addiction crisis by way of health care, more addiction clinics and low-cost rehab facilities, and jobs in the heartland, as we call it. Trump, and the Republicans have no interest in this, as signaled by their gutting of Medicaid, and basically offering no plan in this direction. RFK, Jr, now the head of Health and Human Services, and himself a former heroin addict, has no real approach to the addiction crisis in the US.

I did a cursory dive into smaller cities in Europe. The trend is not really similar, except possibly in Germany and the UK, though the problem seems to have as much to do with immigration as with drugs. Most crime, as in Brazil, seems still to be concentrated in the big cities. Spain, for example, which has a pretty low crime rate overall, while it is also the gateway for a lot of drugs coming into the EU, especially cocaine. And Spain uses a lot of coke, but it doesn't seem to affect the crime rate that much. Spain has had a high unemployment rate, though it is falling. I'm inclined to think that good social services and structures keep the crime down?

 

[Fiero425]

As I said, I think the problem in the US, in smaller cities, and even small towns, has a lot do do with drug use, lack of jobs, and some general hopelessness in the rural areas, where options for work have dwindled. Trump's ham-fisted approach to the problem is to attack Venezuela. Even if it were the source of the drugs that plague the US, you don't cure addiction by cutting off a supply chain. What we need is an aggressive approach to the addiction crisis by way of health care, more addiction clinics and low-cost rehab facilities, and jobs in the heartland, as we call it. Trump, and the Republicans have no interest in this, as signaled by their gutting of Medicaid, and basically offering no plan in this direction. RFK, Jr, now the head of Health and Human Services, and himself a former heroin addict, has no real approach to the addiction crisis in the US.

I did a cursory dive into smaller cities in Europe. The trend is not really similar, except possibly in Germany and the UK, though the problem seems to have as much to do with immigration as with drugs. Most crime, as in Brazil, seems still to be concentrated in the big cities. Spain, for example, which has a pretty low crime rate overall, while it is also the gateway for a lot of drugs coming into the EU, especially cocaine. And Spain uses a lot of coke, but it doesn't seem to affect the crime rate that much. Spain has had a high unemployment rate, though it is falling. I'm inclined to think that good social services and structures keep the crime down?

As bad as the Dems are and continue to be, what does that say about America to accept the tyrannical tactics of conservative Republicans? The lawlessness that's going on shouldn't be tolerated, but it's become the norm w/ little resistance from people who know how bad things are, but can't be bothered to even complain about! The incompetence & frivolity of serious issues & programs is jaw dropping! The ACA is still under attack w/ no replacement in the works! Republicans have wanted to eliminate Obama-care from the beginning in 2011! You ask Trump & Rep. Leadership about what happens if they successfully overturn the law & the answer never changes! "We don't have anything to replace it w/, but.....!" Fk'n idiots including the supporters of this clown!

 

[Federberg]

interesting points he makes. I agree with him. Starmer is much closer to fitting the description of fascist than Farage. But I'm posting this here, because it's fascinating how many things that Trump does that fall into the "fascist" tag...

 

[mrzz]

you don't cure addiction by cutting off a supply chain

We could obviously debate other points too, but this particular phrase ilustrates very well the difference in approach between right and left (and I mean the well intentioned fraction of left and right, which is bellow 0,1% in each case).

Well, if you completely cut off the supply chain, long enough, you do "cure" addiction (in the sense that you stop the growth of the addicted population, and again if you cut it long enough you force current addicteds out of their addiction) . I get your point though, which is that this way you don't tackle the underlying causes of addition, which is obvisouly true.

So, I agree that cutting of the supply chain is not a complete solution, but at the very least is part of the solution (how big a part is debatable). On the other hand, it is also incomplete, or at the very least extremely optimistic, to assume that you can magicaly "solve" the root causes for addiction. Yes, you can address a lot of issues, but easyness of access will always be a factor. If people only need to raise their hand to get a fix, there is no way in hell you will be able to control it. I mean, even in a society that drug use is legal, there must be some "price" for the users to pay.

 

[Federberg]

 

[Federberg]

They keep coming