US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

That might be true but the left are playing this true to form: they cause trouble simply because a Republican president is doing this. When a Democrat president did the same, they were gushing over him. They don’t care about what Trump is doing, they care only that it’s him who’s doing it. They are the modern example of Marx’s permanent revolution…

How do you know this? How do you know what's in people's minds and hearts? It's arrogant of you to pronounce what motivates people, especially since you demean it so. As Federberg says, there are many people who voted for Trump that are pretty appalled by who is going on right now.

The point is not that deportations are happening, for my particular post above, but the excessive force used by ICE on a woman who came out to "watch" as an act of concern. As @mrzz points out, above, we have 2 versions of the story. She says she was standing her ground to observe. ICE says she was disobeying orders, invading the perimeter, and being violent. In either case, she's an unarmed, middle-aged woman of 5'4", and they are heavily armed. I have a hard time believing it was necessary to throw her to the ground, and hold her in shackles at a detention center. THAT is my point. Your answer is just the same palaver about your generalized disgust with leftists.

PS: The video in the 2nd article is just reporting what ICE said. There is no evidence, as yet, to back it up.

 

[Kieran]

How do you know this? How do you know what's in people's minds and hearts? It's arrogant of you to pronounce what motivates people, especially since you demean it so. As Federberg says, there are many people who voted for Trump that are pretty appalled by who is going on right now.

The point is not that deportations are happening, for my particular post above, but the excessive force used by ICE on a woman who came out to "watch" as an act of concern. As @mrzz points out, above, we have 2 versions of the story. She says she was standing her ground to observe. ICE says she was disobeying orders, invading the perimeter, and being violent. In either case, she's an unarmed, middle-aged woman of 5'4", and they are heavily armed. I have a hard time believing it was necessary to throw her to the ground, and hold her in shackles at a detention center. THAT is my point. Your answer is just the same palaver about your generalized disgust with leftists.

PS: The video in the 2nd article is just reporting what ICE said. There is no evidence, as yet, to back it up.

You summed it up ideally at the end: there is no evidence that she was just there to watch and that she didn’t get in the way. They say they told her to get out of the way and they had to use force.

Knowing how the left wing “activists” operate, I believe them. I have a very easy time believing that to get rid of the problem quickly they had to throw her to the ground. And of course anyway, she was always going to claim to be the victim, and the left were always going to believe her and demonise the law enforcement, who are trying to clean up a mess made largely by the democrats.

Bring back Barack, you’d have supported him doing the exact same thing..

 

[Kieran]

The footage of her arrest might have been "conveniently" excluded, as you say, or it might not exist. So far, the footage we have seen, it seems, was taken by a bystander, (or fellow "observer") so they might not have started shooting until she was arrested. She did NOT say that she invaded any perimeter, or that she said she touched the officer. She said they asked her to back up, and she says she didn't. It seems she was on a public street.

By, "I'm proud of what I did," I take that to mean being a "watcher." There is no indication that she did more than that, except for what ICE said later, in a statement. But they have not yet provided their own footage of the incident, which Tim Walz, governor of Minnesota, as asked for.

I don't think they have to be "nice," but there is such a thing as excessive force, and police brutality. I would say both are in play here.

It depends on who you believe, as far as ICE officers facing violence. I have not seen much video evidence of it. Kristi Noem claims there is more, but that is not a person I believe. If her lips are moving, she's generally lying or exaggerating. It is the job of law enforcement to protect the safety of citizens and also non-citizens, not be the perpetrators of violence, or the escalators of it.

Come on, that’s all partisan rigmarole. @mrzz sums it up objectively.

“I’m proud of what I did.” Course she is. She’s getting attention.

Mission accomplished….

 

[mrzz]

It depends on who you believe

I could, or should, reply a lot of other points of your posts, but this phrase is key. Don't worry, I don't believe Kristi Noem in general, I bet she lies her teeth off, but this particular thing is kind of obvious. You have a deeply divided country in which basically each half believes the other half is pure evil, and you have one particular agency that is at the forefront of it, doing a job that is unpleasant by definition. Believe me, even if it was YOU calling the shots at ICE, guaranteeing that each end every case is properly warranted, that citizens rights are respected, etc and etc and, as I believe you would, even then the headlines would be basically the same: it is the Waffen-SS coming. In this context, it is easier to believe that there was a cold day in hell than that violence against ICE officers does not occur. Or we can say that there is a mostly peacefull resistance to ICE (see, I could work at CNN). Kristi Noem might be a big fat lier, but she doesn't need to lie in this particular case. Broken clock or a boy (girl) that cries wolf in front of an actual wolf, make your pick.

And I also don't believe that lady in the video. I simply do not believe one single word she says. Why? Because she is clearly a true believer. She believes she's right, and that she is fighting the greatest evil of all times. She would say and do absolutely anything to make her point. I bet 10 to 1 that she provoked the agents, again believing that she is doing the right thing.

Do I have proof of that? Of course not, but you asked who I believe. I am saying I don't believe anyone. I will try to judge this by the facts available, and the facts are inconclusive. It is a fact that footage starts with her already on the ground. It is a fact that she does not dispute touching the agents, it is a fact that she does not dipute the fact that she did not comply with instructions to back off. So, if we are completely objective, there is evidence supporting the decision to contain her. We have no evidence to conclude if there was excessive force or not, which is what you questioned from the beginning. There are arguments for both cases. Nothing would surprise me.

Now, I can tell you what I think it happened:

In general, the first thing people do in this situations is start to film it. I am quite certain that there is footage of what happened since the beggining, and I am quite certain that she knew it all was being recorded. I bet she did just enough to provoke a response from the agents, advanced cautiously directly against what was being asked of her, spoke loudly to their faces and touched them (with a very light push, for example), in order to leave them no choice but to contain her. That is what I would do if I were sure I was dealing with neo-nazis, and I thought that social media was the answer for everything.

Now, footage can prove me wrong. I like my theories, but I like reality more.

 

[Moxie]

You summed it up ideally at the end: there is no evidence that she was just there to watch and that she didn’t get in the way. They say they told her to get out of the way and they had to use force.

You put words in my mouth that I didn't say, which is cheap. That is the opposite of what I said. There is on-camera testimony of the woman, and of her being arrested. You can choose not to believe her story, but that would be to assume that both she and her husband would go on camera and lie, which is a stretch. Most people don't.

Knowing how the left wing “activists” operate, I believe them. I have a very easy time believing that to get rid of the problem quickly they had to throw her to the ground. And of course anyway, she was always going to claim to be the victim, and the left were always going to believe her and demonise the law enforcement, who are trying to clean up a mess made largely by the democrats.

Bring back Barack, you’d have supported him doing the exact same thing..

I agree with you that what Obama did was no better, in terms of wholesale deportation and failing to follow due process. You claim that no one on the left complained then, in an earlier post. That is untrue. Most vocally, the ACLU complained about it the whole time, and sued him over it. I don't think anyone would call the ACLU an arm of the right. That's why he was called the "Deporter-in-Chief?" And that moniker didn't come from the right. The right was happy to see him do it, though not enough to praise him for it. Obama tried to offset some of this policy with others that gave some comfort to immigrants, like DACA.

However, part of why the reaction is different now: Obama didn't make a big show of it, which Trump IS doing, because he campaigned on it. He also didn't do it as brutally. Nor by defying the courts, which Trump is doing. Also, Trump has stripped the protections that used to keep immigrants from being seized at schools, churches, healthcare facilities, courthouses and other "sensitive places." This is another thing that is upsetting people of all political stripes. Call it a PR blunder, if you like. I'd say it's much worse. In any case, Trump's blunt-force, take-no-prisoners approach to this policy (and others) is not playing as well as he expected, including with people who voted for him.

 

[Moxie]

I could, or should, reply a lot of other points of your posts, but this phrase is key. Don't worry, I don't believe Kristi Noem in general, I bet she lies her teeth off, but this particular thing is kind of obvious. You have a deeply divided country in which basically each half believes the other half is pure evil, and you have one particular agency that is at the forefront of it, doing a job that is unpleasant by definition. Believe me, even if it was YOU calling the shots at ICE, guaranteeing that each end every case is properly warranted, that citizens rights are respected, etc and etc and, as I believe you would, even then the headlines would be basically the same: it is the Waffen-SS coming. In this context, it is easier to believe that there was a cold day in hell than that violence against ICE officers does not occur. Or we can say that there is a mostly peacefull resistance to ICE (see, I could work at CNN). Kristi Noem might be a big fat lier, but she doesn't need to lie in this particular case. Broken clock or a boy (girl) that cries wolf in front of an actual wolf, make your pick.

I disagree with this basic premise. If it was me, (or someone else) running Homeland Security, who could guarantee that each case was warranted, in that we were only deporting criminals, which is what Trump ran on, instead of broad sweeps that take in even US citizens, or people here legally, there would NOT be the same backlash. The problem for Trump is that this would take time, and consideration of individual cases, and he's promised numbers, so babies go out with the bathwater.

And I also don't believe that lady in the video. I simply do not believe one single word she says. Why? Because she is clearly a true believer. She believes she's right, and that she is fighting the greatest evil of all times. She would say and do absolutely anything to make her point. I bet 10 to 1 that she provoked the agents, again believing that she is doing the right thing.

Do I have proof of that? Of course not, but you asked who I believe. I am saying I don't believe anyone. I will try to judge this by the facts available, and the facts are inconclusive. It is a fact that footage starts with her already on the ground. It is a fact that she does not dispute touching the agents, it is a fact that she does not dipute the fact that she did not comply with instructions to back off. So, if we are completely objective, there is evidence supporting the decision to contain her. We have no evidence to conclude if there was excessive force or not, which is what you questioned from the beginning. There are arguments for both cases. Nothing would surprise me.

You can see my above to Kieran about why I don't think that woman would lie on camera. You have on-camera testimony of her, and of her arrest. That's something that you can't deny. As to the bolded above, she never said she touched an agent. She wasn't even asked that by the reporter. That claim comes only from ICE, and they have yet to provide proof.

I'm surprised that you conclude that there is no evidence of excessive force against the woman. That would assume that, no only do you not believe the woman's story, you don't even take it into account. If you believe that there are two sides to this story, and you plan to judge them equally, then, if she's telling the truth, excessive force was used against her. And, I'm sorry, but being held in shackles?? She was already detained. Locked in a cell. I don't know how crazy or dangerous you have to be for that, but she's a protester, or perhaps, just an observer. FFS.

Now, I can tell you what I think it happened:

In general, the first thing people do in this situations is start to film it. I am quite certain that there is footage of what happened since the beggining, and I am quite certain that she knew it all was being recorded. I bet she did just enough to provoke a response from the agents, advanced cautiously directly against what was being asked of her, spoke loudly to their faces and touched them (with a very light push, for example), in order to leave them no choice but to contain her. That is what I would do if I were sure I was dealing with neo-nazis, and I thought that social media was the answer for everything.

Now, footage can prove me wrong. I like my theories, but I like reality more.

There is a LOT of speculation, and a certain amount of prejudice and assumption in what you think might have happened, in this comment. You assume she did what ICE said she did, not what she says she did. You also assume it was being filmed to whole time. You can't assume that. It was 6:30am, and more than one person, including this woman, says they got out of bed to be "watchers." It's reasonable to assume, if you want to make assumptions, that people aren't at their most alert. You're also assuming that the video that the citizen videographer edited the footage before giving it to the TV station. Not everyone even knows how to do that. Or, you're assuming that the TV station edited it out. (Unlikely.)

Personally, I think your theory is full of holes. Maybe, eventually, we'll get the ICE footage of the incident. Meantime, you might consider that, rather than filling in with speculation, you give heavier weight to what is actually there to be seen and known. It surprises me that you don't. Being a factual kinda guy.

 

[Kieran]

You put words in my mouth that I didn't say, which is cheap. That is the opposite of what I said. There is on-camera testimony of the woman, and of her being arrested. You can choose not to believe her story, but that would be to assume that both she and her husband would go on camera a lie, which is a stretch. Most people don't.

No, I turned your words back on you. You said there's no evidence to back up what ICE said, and I said these are the exact words that can be used to say there's no evidence to say she was just there to watch, etc. As if, eh?

I agree with you that what Obama did was no better, in terms of wholesale deportation and failing to follow due process. You claim that no one on the left complained then, in an earlier post. That is untrue. Most vocally, the ACLU complained about it the whole time, and sued him over it. I don't think anyone would call the ACLU an arm of the right. That's why he was called the "Deporter-in-Chief?" And that moniker didn't come from the right. The right was happy to see him do it, though not enough to praise him for it. Obama tried to offset some of this policy with others that gave some comfort to immigrants, like DACA.

However, part of why the reaction is different now: Obama didn't make a big show of it, which Trump IS doing, because he campaigned on it. He also didn't do it as brutally. Nor by defying the courts, which Trump is doing. Also, Trump has stripped the protections that used to keep immigrants from being seized at schools, churches, healthcare facilities and courthouses. This is another thing that is upsetting people of all political stripes. Call it a PR blunder, if you like. I'd say it's much worse. In any case, Trump's blunt-force, take-no-prisoners approach to this policy (and others) is not playing as well as he expected, including with people who voted for him.

I know about the ACLU article, I pointed it out here a month ago, and the point I made then still stands: none of your mob gave enough of a flying feck about Obama doing it that they got out on the streets impeding the ICE agents, no big noises about illegal deportation orders, and no masked (natch) rallies. You say that a difference between Obama doing it and Trump doing it is that Trump made it a centrepiece of his election campaign. Of course he did, and he won handsomely, for that, among many other reasons. And now, unusually for a politician, he's following through on his words.

But that doesn't offend the misnomered "activists", nor does any of the rest of it, cos if it did they'd have been protesting Obama. They don't care about the activities of ICE, they don't care about the illegals, they only care about causing constant disruption, gaining attention and weakening your country. We have them here too, the useless useful idiots who support Hamas and cheered when the Jewish State closed it's embassy in Dublin and removed its ambassador from the country. Imagine the shame of that for my country. But this is the far left. The useless bastards who demanded that they Globalise the Intifada, you elected one as your mayor, are seeing the effects of their words on Bondi Beach, and they'll regret none of it, though publicly they'll say they didn't that there should be violence, which would be a lie.

And speaking of lying, I don't know why you think that woman wouldn't lie on camera. That belief makes me shake my head in amazement....

 

[Fiero425]

You put words in my mouth that I didn't say, which is cheap. That is the opposite of what I said. There is on-camera testimony of the woman, and of her being arrested. You can choose not to believe her story, but that would be to assume that both she and her husband would go on camera a lie, which is a stretch. Most people don't.

I agree with you that what Obama did was no better, in terms of wholesale deportation and failing to follow due process. You claim that no one on the left complained then, in an earlier post. That is untrue. Most vocally, the ACLU complained about it the whole time, and sued him over it. I don't think anyone would call the ACLU an arm of the right. That's why he was called the "Deporter-in-Chief?" And that moniker didn't come from the right. The right was happy to see him do it, though not enough to praise him for it. Obama tried to offset some of this policy with others that gave some comfort to immigrants, like DACA.

However, part of why the reaction is different now: Obama didn't make a big show of it, which Trump IS doing, because he campaigned on it. He also didn't do it as brutally. Nor by defying the courts, which Trump is doing. Also, Trump has stripped the protections that used to keep immigrants from being seized at schools, churches, healthcare facilities and courthouses. This is another thing that is upsetting people of all political stripes. Call it a PR blunder, if you like. I'd say it's much worse. In any case, Trump's blunt-force, take-no-prisoners approach to this policy (and others) is not playing as well as he expected, including with people who voted for him.

I was appalled at what Obama was doing way back when w/ immigration, renditions, & double tap bombing! He was probably more harsh & oppressive than Republicans trying to appease them! He sent back more immigrants than Trump initially! The problem w/ Rep. is how they have no shame in how they perform the duty! Would it be harsh to think of Nazi & Brown Shirt tactics going on? They've been in charge all year & still haven't passed immigration reform which proves my point; "neither side really wants to rule on the issue!" It's just a political football they keep kicking back & forth over the decades! Reagan made it an issue, got Congress to revert to Republican control after 40+ yrs. in the wilderness & still nothing was passed! We want things as they are, but don't want to admit it! Such a waste of resources as we send people back on planes so they can turn around & come back! Idiotic!

 

[Moxie]

No, I turned your words back on you. You said there's no evidence to back up what ICE said, and I said these are the exact words that can be used to say there's no evidence to say she was just there to watch, etc. As if, eh?

I know about the ACLU article, I pointed it out here a month ago, and the point I made then still stands: none of your mob gave enough of a flying feck about Obama doing it that they got out on the streets impeding the ICE agents, no big noises about illegal deportation orders, and no masked (natch) rallies. You say that a difference between Obama doing it and Trump doing it is that Trump made it a centrepiece of his election campaign. Of course he did, and he won handsomely, for that, among many other reasons. And now, unusually for a politician, he's following through on his words.

But that doesn't offend the misnomered "activists", nor does any of the rest of it, cos if it did they'd have been protesting Obama. They don't care about the activities of ICE, they don't care about the illegals, they only care about causing constant disruption, gaining attention and weakening your country. We have them here too, the useless useful idiots who support Hamas and cheered when the Jewish State closed it's embassy in Dublin and removed its ambassador from the country. Imagine the shame of that for my country. But this is the far left. The useless bastards who demanded that they Globalise the Intifada, you elected one as your mayor, are seeing the effects of their words on Bondi Beach, and they'll regret none of it, though publicly they'll say they didn't that there should be violence, which would be a lie.

And speaking of lying, I don't know why you think that woman wouldn't lie on camera. That belief makes me shake my head in amazement....

Get over Obama. He hasn't been President since 2016. Look at the problem at hand. I honestly think that your disdain for the left leaves you unable to see the forest for the trees.

More than a few people, on the right and the left, feel that Trump, and this Supreme Court are a threat to our constitutional democracy. This country is in an existential crisis.

PS: As to lying on camera, I've been a documentary filmmaker. Laymen don't tend to lie on camera. They certainly don't do it well. You have to practice a lot to lie on camera. Or be a sociopath. Most people just want to tell their stories, and they do it honestly. Politicians can begin to believe their own lies, as can criminals. Regular people, especially when something happened today or yesterday, they are unprepared to lie. It's awfully cynical that you think the world is so full of skillful liars.

 

[Kieran]

I was appalled at what Obama was doing way back when w/ immigration, renditions, & double tap bombing! He was probably more harsh & oppressive than Republicans trying to appease them! He sent back more immigrants than Trump initially! The problem w/ Rep. is how they have no shame in how they perform the duty! Would it be harsh to think of Nazi & Brown Shirt tactics going on? They've been in charge all year & still haven't passed immigration reform which proves my point; "neither side really wants to rule on the issue!" It's just a political football they keep kicking back & forth over the decades! Reagan made it an issue, got Congress to revert to Republican control after 40+ yrs. in the wilderness & still nothing was passed! We want things as they are, but don't want to admit it! Such a waste of resources as we send people back on planes so they can turn around & come back! Idiotic!

They’re not going back because the illegal border crossings are now down to the lowest levels in decades. Trump is doing what Obama did, you’d think democrats would be happy, wouldn’t you?

And give it a break with the Nazi rhetoric, it’s such an old fashioned cliche, without foundation…

 

[Moxie]

I was appalled at what Obama was doing way back when w/ immigration, renditions, & double tap bombing! He was probably more harsh & oppressive than Republicans trying to appease them! He sent back more immigrants than Trump initially! The problem w/ Rep. is how they have no shame in how they perform the duty! Would it be harsh to think of Nazi & Brown Shirt tactics going on? They've been in charge all year & still haven't passed immigration reform which proves my point; "neither side really wants to rule on the issue!" It's just a political football they keep kicking back & forth over the decades! Reagan made it an issue, got Congress to revert to Republican control after 40+ yrs. in the wilderness & still nothing was passed! We want things as they are, but don't want to admit it! Such a waste of resources as we send people back on planes so they can turn around & come back! Idiotic!

What double-tap bombing was Obama guilty of?

But you're very right that neither side has wanted to deal is a real way with immigration. Trump just wants brown and black people out of the country. With no concern for what this blow to the workforce will do to the economy. He's going to pay for that, down the road. I.e., next year.

 

[Kieran]

Get over Obama. He hasn't been President since 2016. Look at the problem at hand. I honestly think that your disdain for the left leaves you unable to see the forest for the trees.

More than a few people, on the right and the left, feel that Trump, and this Supreme Court are a threat to our constitutional democracy. This country is in an existential crisis.

PS: As to lying on camera, I've been a documentary filmmaker. Laymen don't tend to lie on camera. They certainly don't do it well. You have to practice a lot to lie on camera. Or be a sociopath. Most people just want to tell their stories, and they do it honestly. Politicians can begin to believe their own lies, as can criminals. Regular people, especially when something happened today or yesterday, they are unprepared to lie. It's awfully cynical that you think the world is so full of skillful liars.

You will always be reminded by me of Obama because of the hypocrisy of your party on this issue, and because of his cowardice and ignorance which emboldened Putin to take Crimea, and we know what’s happened since. I liked him at first, but he was an empty suit.

And he was like a lousy member of a sub-committee on garden fences level orator.

As for lying, I’m sorry, we’re disagree on this. People lie all the time, no matter that they're “lay people.” She’s an “activist” talking to her constituency and expecting that she’ll be easily believed. Most sane people would just reflexively dismiss her by saying the word Karen…

 

[Moxie]

And he was like a lousy member of a sub-committee on garden fences level orator.

??

 

[Moxie]

And give it a break with the Nazi rhetoric, it’s such an old fashioned cliche, without foundation…

Not without foundation. Trump is coalescing power in the executive branch, and the Supreme Court is helping him. He's sending the National Guard into cities against our own people. He's weaponizing the Department of Justice against his enemies. He has denuded so many departments of functioning and capable bureaucrats in favor of loyalists with no experience. He claims that they should be loyal to him, when our constitution and laws require that they be loyal to the Constitution, not to one person. His secretary of Defense is a guy who was a commentator for Fox, and has no idea what he's doing. He is bombing small boats off of Venezuela, claiming that they are enemies of war, without a declaration of war. He threatens everyone who doesn't capitulate with removal, or being "primaried." He is feathering his nest, and that of his family with the influence that he has. He has no care for the American people or our needs, no matter what he promised. He has power, and no concern for the constitutionality of how he wields it.

 

[mrzz]

I disagree with this basic premise. If it was me, (or someone else) running Homeland Security, who could guarantee that each case was warranted, in that we were only deporting criminals, which is what Trump ran on, instead of broad sweeps that take in even US citizens, or people here legally, there would NOT be the same backlash. The problem for Trump is that this would take time, and consideration of individual cases, and he's promised numbers, so babies go out with the bathwater.

You can see my above to Kieran about why I don't think that woman would lie on camera. You have on-camera testimony of her, and of her arrest. That's something that you can't deny. As to the bolded above, she never said she touched an agent. She wasn't even asked that by the reporter. That claim comes only from ICE, and they have yet to provide proof.

I'm surprised that you conclude that there is no evidence of excessive force against the woman. That would assume that, no only do you not believe the woman's story, you don't even take it into account. If you believe that there are two sides to this story, and you plan to judge them equally, then, if she's telling the truth, excessive force was used against her. And, I'm sorry, but being held in shackles?? She was already detained. Locked in a cell. I don't know how crazy or dangerous you have to be for that, but she's a protester, or perhaps, just an observer. FFS.

There is a LOT of speculation, and a certain amount of prejudice and assumption in what you think might have happened, in this comment. You assume she did what ICE said she did, not what she says she did. You also assume it was being filmed to whole time. You can't assume that. It was 6:30am, and more than one person, including this woman, says they got out of bed to be "watchers." It's reasonable to assume, if you want to make assumptions, that people aren't at their most alert. You're also assuming that the video that the citizen videographer edited the footage before giving it to the TV station. Not everyone even knows how to do that. Or, you're assuming that the TV station edited it out. (Unlikely.)

Personally, I think your theory is full of holes. Maybe, eventually, we'll get the ICE footage of the incident. Meantime, you might consider that, rather than filling in with speculation, you give heavier weight to what is actually there to be seen and known. It surprises me that you don't. Being a factual kinda guy.

So far we don't know if it was excessive force because we don't know what she did. You seem to think that it is impossible that she was kicking and screaming before or during her arrest (even if she was kicking thin air). It is not impossible.

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree. Following on with this discussion is not productive.

 

[Kieran]

Not without foundation. Trump is coalescing power in the executive branch, and the Supreme Court is helping him. He's sending the National Guard into cities against our own people. He's weaponizing the Department of Justice against his enemies. He has denuded so many departments of functioning and capable bureaucrats in favor of loyalists with no experience. He claims that they should be loyal to him, when our constitution and laws require that they be loyal to the Constitution, not to one person. His secretary of Defense is a guy who was a commentator for Fox, and has no idea what he's doing. He is bombing small boats off of Venezuela, claiming that they are enemies of war, without a declaration of war. He threatens everyone who doesn't capitulate with removal, or being "primaried." He is feathering his nest, and that of his family with the influence that he has. He has no care for the American people or our needs, no matter what he promised. He has power, and no concern for the constitutionality of how he wields it.

You know that this was one of reasons Charlie Kirk was killed, not that you’d care? But that your side calling everyone they hate a racist, fascist, nazi, dehumanises them to others on your side to the extent that they believe that their violence is justified. Horrible people celebrating the death of a polite young man who made arguments they couldn’t answer, let’s demonise him, let’s shoot him, let’s celebrate his killing.

Was Joe Biden a Nazi when he weaponised social media during covid? Was Justin Trudeau a Nazi when he raided the bank accounts of protesters against his fascist covid mandate? When he tried to force compelled speech into sane people who haven’t been hoodwinked by the trans hoax?

This kind Is rhetoric is for the kids, or the inattentive, but the consequences of it can be fatal..

 

[Federberg]

If her lips are moving, she's generally lying or exaggerating. It is the job of law enforcement to protect the safety of citizens and also non-citizens, not be the perpetrators of violence, or the escalators of it.

with the amount of surgery can her lips still move? Serious question...

Why do people do it?? She was hot before..

 

[Moxie]

with the amount of surgery can her lips still move? Serious question...

Why do people do it?? She was hot before..

Plastic Surgery Trend: Will “Mar-a-Lago Face” Take Over D.C.?

Even as the rest of the country is dialing back on plastic surgery, MAGA figureheads like Kimberly Guilfoyle and Laura Loomer are cranking up the fillers. And you can thank Fox News for that.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Moxie]

So far we don't know if it was excessive force because we don't know what she did. You seem to think that it is impossible that she was kicking and screaming before or during her arrest (even if she was kicking thin air). It is not impossible.

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree. Following on with this discussion is not productive.

Actually, we can both see that she was kicking and screaming during her arrest. Sure, we don't know the full story, or if excessive force was used, but you have invented a scenario, and you neglect the testimony you see. I don't think we have to agree to disagree. I think we're both waiting for more information. But I'm rather surprised that you side with the cops.

 

[Moxie]

You know that this was one of reasons Charlie Kirk was killed, not that you’d care? But that your side calling everyone they hate a racist, fascist, nazi, dehumanises them to others on your side to the extent that they believe that their violence is justified. Horrible people celebrating the death of a polite young man who made arguments they couldn’t answer, let’s demonise him, let’s shoot him, let’s celebrate his killing.

Was Joe Biden a Nazi when he weaponised social media during covid? Was Justin Trudeau a Nazi when he raided the bank accounts of protesters against his fascist covid mandate? When he tried to force compelled speech into sane people who haven’t been hoodwinked by the trans hoax?

This kind Is rhetoric is for the kids, or the inattentive, but the consequences of it can be fatal..

What a terrible thing to say, that I don't care that Charlie Kirk was killed.

But in terms of demonizing the other side, this is what Trump posted about Rob Reiner's death: