From 1991 on in the Balkans

mrzz

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This thread has one specific goal: I would like to ask our Serbian contributors (and if I am not mistaken we have two) and other posters from the region, if we have them (if you there, I am sorry if I missed your posts), your take on everything that happened in the region from 1991 on.

As you are well aware of the Manichean way that everything that happened is presented to people in the rest of the world, I would really like to read your personal take on it. Naturally feel free to add any external source that you wish, but I am really not looking for what any newspaper, website or whatever form of media (aledgelly independent or not) has to say. These guys, even if with good intentions (everyone says so, anyway), have one obvious bias: They want to tell a story. And I do not know why they want to. In your case, you would be answering someone, which is completely different to me.

Even if I am not completely ignorant in the history of the region, feel free to stop and explain whatever you wish needs to be explained/contextualized.

Thanks already for any lined dropped here.
 
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Billie

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Hey @mrzz I can only tell you my experiences from that period and a little bit of history in these regions. The issue is very complicated and I am sure that different people can tell you different things. I am a Serb, born in what is now called Bosnia & Herzegovina, on the very border of Croatia and Bosnia. As a young girl and in order to escape fighting and horrors of war, as well as try to find any kind of normal living, I had to leave my home and subsequent residences 3 times in 1992, and finally left this area along with my younger sister for Canada in 1996 while my parents stayed in the region. Now it would be best if you had any specific questions as I am sure the prevailing narrative is that Serbs were bad and majority in former Yugoslavia, others were oppressed and all that jazz, therefore that country had to be broken up and divided among the former republics that made up the country as a whole. I'll just mention that history of the area has played a major role in the events as well, history that goes back many centuries as well as WWW1 & WWW2 and meddling of the West.

I also want to thank you for showing the interest in this topic as normally people who are not familiar and don't have any horses in the race just skip over the news and accept whatever is served in the news to justify their decisions and reasons to break up a country. To be frank when I read your OP, it took me a while to go back to the beginnings and remember all the events as it now seems to me they happened ages ago. So I'll try to answer as best as I can and point to sources, videos, links and other tools that are available on the web. Thanks again!:)
 

mrzz

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Thanks for answering, Billie.

Being completely transparent, my interest comes mainly from the fact that I like to understand things, specially the complicated ones. Besides, this part of the world history has always been important not only per se, but as a crucial link in the world´s history. And yet still, with these last year´s being usually covered by the media in an extremely biased approach, means that understand the truth behind the narratives helps you to get the truth out of any other narrative.

That being said, I already am a little informed about it, and the sources I had were -- I believe -- relatively neutral. But the first thing I realized when I was reading, or watching, or listening, about it is that is very hard to find sources without an explicit agenda.

That´s why I asked for personal impressions, rather than external sources. I have read all of you writing on this forum, and I am pretty sure that you are honest enough to let your own biases explicit (everyone is biased, after all). Honesty overcomes the bias.

So let me start by asking one thing (there will be more): For a Brazilian -- even if son of an Italian -- is always a little strange to hear you say that you were born in Bosnia and call yourself a Serb (even if borders changed). How you, and your family, felt in your homeland? Serbs in Bosnia? Or part of something 'greater' that would encompass Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and so on... That is, how deep you felt the divide was, if there was any to you.

And let me thank you once again for spending your time with this. For days I was in doubt if I should ask this on the board or not, you never know how painful some memories can be. I convinced myself, but right after I clicked on "submit" I felt a bit of remorse. After all, my reasons are, in the end, anything but selfish. I apologize to you, and to any other poster here, if this thread ends up touching hurtful memories.
 

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No worries @mrzz There are lots of painful things in life but people survive. “Man is a creature that can get accustomed to anything, and I think that is the best definition of him.” Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The House of the Dead. Good quote, I think.

It is confusing: I guess Serbians are from Serbia therefore Serbs are ethnicity outside of Serbia, like Serbs from Bosnia, from Croatia or from diaspora. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

Well Yugoslavia consisted of 6 republics so technically we all lived in the same country, much like the states in the USA. So people lived in certain areas for generations. People also moved from one part of the country to another, for different reasons, so for example my mom was born in Serbia, but her father decided to come back to Bosnia close to his origins some 10 years after the WWW2. Therefore I was born there.

Before Ottoman invasion in the middle of 15 century, there were mainly Christians living there. So that border (which is now the border of Croatia and Bosnia) was the last frontier of separation between the Ottoman Turks and Western countries. They stayed there for close to 500 years and imposed their harsh laws on the population. Some just suffered and tried to live through it the best they could, some took up Islam and their circumstances improved significantly. In fact many Muslim families in Bosnia could trace their Christian origins before the conversion. Famous Serbian filmmaker Emir Kusturica is one of them. He decided to return to his Orthodox roots and got christened in the church. They always talked the same language as we did, they still do, they don't know Turkish or Arab or any other. The only Nobel Prize winner from YU is Ivo Andric and if you are interested to learn more about this period you can search for his The Bridge over Drina, even though the bridge in question is actually on the very eastern side of Bosnia over Drina river which separates Bosnia and Serbia. But it is a historical novel about this time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_on_the_Drina

Anyway after the Ottomas, this area was occupied by Austria-Hungary until their heir to the throne Franz Ferdinand's assassination in June of 1914 in Sarajevo by a Serb Gavrilo Princip, which lead to the start of WWW1. After the war, they were incorporated into the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which was later renamed Kingdom of Yugoslavia, with Serbian Royal family Karadjordjevic at the throne until the invasion of the German Nazi in 1941. There were tensions between the 3 entities living here before, but then all hell broke lose during WWW2. Croatia immediately accepted the Nazi regime and constituted their NDH, which was a puppet state of Germany and Italy and whose primary purpose was to get rid of Serbs, Jews, Roma people and those who didn't agree with their politics in many concentration camps, Jasenovac being the notorious one, but they did have one for children only. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisak_children's_concentration_camp So that was only 2 nationalities, imagine what can happen when you add additional one, like in B&H and then the rise of partisan movement, which at the end of the war prevailed. So the socialist/communist country of SFRJ (Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) emerged, the brotherhood and unity being the motto. What was bad in the war had to be forgotten, nationalists had to be taken out and the period of renewal of the country started and the statements of history never repeating itself a firm belief. Which worked for a while, I guess, some got into this idea but we now know that there were a lot of suppressed nationalism from all sides. There were good things: education was free (even universities), health care was free, job security was pretty much guaranteed, we could even travel all over the world.

You know there were signs that something bad was going to happen, military vs police and paramilitary units tensions, demonstrations, but I truly in my heart didn't believe that something like that was about to unfold where I lived. Even if fighting technically started in Croatia, I thought; no it won't happen here. That was a naïve thinking, I know that, but I guess I was hoping for some sense of calm reasoning. As the republics started to declare independence the Yugoslav army had to withdraw from these republics because they technically were not the same country anymore. Some separated without much problems, like Macedonia and later Montenegro, some resisted a little like Slovenia, but the worst happened in Croatia and B&H. The personnel withdrew in 1992, but they left arms for Serbs in Krajina and B&H who did not want to accept independent states of Croatia and B&H, mostly because they feared that events from past would happen again.

Shoot any more questions if you have them @mrz I sometimes go on and on about something and miss the original point without even realizing it.:)
 

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Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, Billie. A very good quote, by the way, from a good book from a great author. And I do have lots of question, but I can shoot them one at a time. We have all the time in the world...

So your grandfather was born in Bosnia. Did he called himself a Bosnian with the same naturality you call yourself a Serb? If he did, it means that yet so he felt completely ok to go back and forth. I could even go as further as saying that what you described as your naive sense of security has its roots on this -- so maybe it wasn't that naive, even if things turned for the worst.
 
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Billie

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You are welcome @mrzz

My maternal grandfather was not born in what is now called B&H, but he came there from Serbia in 1954, bought a piece of land and his youngest children (my mom included) came to live there from that point on. At the time, it was outside of one of the cities in this region and he was the first one there, then later on more people settled down around him (mostly Muslim) until this became part of the town where I was born in. He was actually born in a region that is called Lika (which is close by) and was populated mostly with Serbs (that is part of Croatia now). His younger brother stayed there the whole time and kind of took over the property where all of them were born on and lived until he passed away, before 1990s. My grandfather also passed away long before the war and both my grandfather and grandmother were buried where he was originally from in Lika. No, he didn't consider himself Bosnian.

Before 1992 everybody who lived in Bosnia was called Bosnian - it's a geographical determination, not national. The same with Herzegovina, which was the southern part of that republic. When I went to live in Belgrade in 1992, people there called me Bosnian because technically I was one, born and raised there. I know that the connotation with that word now is Muslim population, but it is not true. There were Serbs, Croats and Muslims living there together. But this the most western part of the republic, along with the area across the border in Croatia was mostly populated by Serbs, certainly before WWW2. You can see from the map how ridiculous these borders are, they were technically dividing large populations of Serbs into 2 republics, which they used as the basis for claiming independence from Yugoslavia.

The 2nd image is what this area is divided into now.

mbosnia.gif

administrative-map-of-bosnia-and-herzegovina.jpg
 
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It is interesting to hear that "There were Serbs, Croats and Muslims living there together". If you allow me, do you remember (or did you actually had the chance to see) what was your grandfather´s relation to Croats and Muslims?

And, when you say you were called Bosnian, do you have any bitter memories of it? What tone people used when they called you that? How do you felt? Feel completely free to simply skip the question if you want...

I fully agree with your instance about how ridiculous borders can get, and with just some minutes trying to learn something about Republika Srpska I got the message that the situation is still very complicated.
 
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Billie, just wanted to tell you that I bought "The Bridge on the Drina" today, and I am eagerly expecting it to arrive (actually it is an Italian translation).

And, just to comment on the borders issue. There is a passage on Harold Nicolson´s book on the Versailles treatise (a wonderful book, by the way), where the author describes a scene when he entered a room and found President Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau all with knees and elbows over a giant map on the floor, drawing borders with pencils... after a long, grueling (and mostly incompetent) peace conference, all words from the technical advisers were simply forgotten, and it all came down to this: three guys lying on the floor drawing borders. I remember that passage as soon as I read your post.
 

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Billie, just wanted to tell you that I bought "The Bridge on the Drina" today, and I am eagerly expecting it to arrive (actually it is an Italian translation).

And, just to comment on the borders issue. There is a passage on Harold Nicolson´s book on the Versailles treatise (a wonderful book, by the way), where the author describes a scene when he entered a room and found President Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau all with knees and elbows over a giant map on the floor, drawing borders with pencils... after a long, grueling (and mostly incompetent) peace conference, all words from the technical advisers were simply forgotten, and it all came down to this: three guys lying on the floor drawing borders. I remember that passage as soon as I read your post.

I only read the book in my native language so it will be interesting for me to hear what you think of it.

Good story about borders, somebody must have played with ours as well. :yes:
 
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It is interesting to hear that "There were Serbs, Croats and Muslims living there together". If you allow me, do you remember (or did you actually had the chance to see) what was your grandfather´s relation to Croats and Muslims?

And, when you say you were called Bosnian, do you have any bitter memories of it? What tone people used when they called you that? How do you felt? Feel completely free to simply skip the question if you want...

I fully agree with your instance about how ridiculous borders can get, and with just some minutes trying to learn something about Republika Srpska I got the message that the situation is still very complicated.

Yeah, it is as complicated as it can get. The Dayton Agreement had been signed so that war could be stopped, see how many decided our borders then LOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Agreement

My grandfather. I do have memories of him, I was a teenager when he passed away. I never knew the other grandfather, on my dad's side, as he passed away during WWW2.

He was a quiet man, never employed in any kind of state company (as most of them were state owned). He never socialized with his neighbours, as I said at first there were not a lot of them around, later on he just kept to himself and his family. My memories of him are always working on and building something and then at night he would entertain us (when we would come to visit) with playing "gusle", which he built himself, naturally and singing many Serbian songs from history. My grandmother was in charge of socializing with neighbours.
 
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Hey, Billie, just to tell you that the book finally arrived, it will jump the line and it is the next one I´ll start, as soon as I finish any of the two I am reading in parallel now (bad habit, I know).

There is a funny thing in the Italian translation. Italian, as Portuguese, has different articles for masculine and feminine nouns. River (fiume) is a masculine one, but by the title and from a few google searches I see that nevertheless Italians refer to the Drina as "La Drina", as opposed to most cases I know (Il Tevere, Il Adige, Il Arno), even if I just found some other feminine river names, but they are surely exceptions (someone whose Italian is his mother language could surely explain). Anyway this is just a curiosity.

I couldn´t help but revisit your posts here and I tell you that they have a very peculiar beauty. I could go on, but I rather not. Anyway, with this I am saying that I will surely keep asking, because I am really enjoying the answers. And, yes, I won´t be hypocritical, there are things I still want to ask, but the subject did not arrived there naturally.

So, whenever you have a bit of time to spare (and to connect to a subject you touched), tell me a bit more of the times where Yugoslavia was still there. The narrative in the west is the obvious one, zero freedom and etc, but your words do not agree 100% with that, it seems.
 

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Many rivers in former YU are feminine gender. Serbian and Croatian use grammatical genders, similar to your articles for masculine and feminine nouns. We have 3 genders: feminine, masculine, and neuter, both for singular and plural. It's a bit of a nightmare for people who try to learn the language, add to that 7 cases for both nouns and pronouns, then verb tenses. Once you figure out the morphology, it is easy. We have 30 letters and each letter is pronounced exactly how it is written, nothing like English. So once you learn all letters, reading is easy.

Drina, Sava, Una, Morava, Tisa are rivers that have feminine gender (very often, but not always, words that end with -a are feminine gender. Danube (Dunav) is masculine though.:D

All right @mrzz I'll look for some interesting YouTube videos and articles of old country over the weekend and post them for you. Enjoy your books.:)
 
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SFRJ was actually kind of unique, as we were not a typical hard core communist country, but nevertheless there was only 1 party and we had a long time president, since the WWW2 till the day he died in 1980, Josip Broz Tito. Now there are all sorts of stories about him, who he was, where he came from, who appointed him. But we could travel all over the world, had access to both Western and Eastern culture and were not part of either NATO or Warsaw Pact and in fact he was big on non-alliance movement. We also had free education (even all post secondary education) and free medical care. Job security was very high, my mom for example started and retired in 1 company, as well as my dad. There were a lot of good things, definitely. On the other hand, religion was marginalized (at least in public), privately you could still celebrate religious holidays, but they were not recognized by the state. Nationalism was also a no-no and fiercely fought, especially right after the war. There were many marriages between people of different nationalities, a couple of my uncles married girls of different nationality, actually some of the tennis players what moved away and are citizens of other countries were from mixed marriages from these regions: Tomic, Petkovic, Mladenovic; also Ivanisevic has a Serbian father, Cilic has a Serbian mother, Nole's mother is Croatian, Ljubicic has a Muslim wife, to name few on top of my head.

I refer a lot to WWW2 because frankly a lot of what happened then had a lot of influence on what happened later on with the country. The events of WWW2 war were taught in school from the perspective of the winners, which were partisans in our country. Brotherhood and unity was the main motto, the country was rebuilt by its citizens, whatever bad happened in that war was being forgotten. Or so it was thought.

So @mrzz, I'll let you read this and see if you have follow up questions.
 

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So one cannot help but to think that if there would be maybe more 50 years of communism, or better, of state unity, maybe all those differences could be forgotten or forgiven. There are probably people who like to keep somethings alive just to able to use it when they think is more convenient....

What happens to the families like the ones you mentioned, born out of marriages between different ethnical groups? I guess they faced enormous pressure both from outside and inside.... they are the symbol of unity, they are quite common in fact, as the examples from the tennis word you mention show, but in this side of the fence you do not see beautiful stories on the press about them...
 
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teddytennisfan

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SFRJ was actually kind of unique, as we were not a typical hard core communist country, but nevertheless there was only 1 party and we had a long time president, since the WWW2 till the day he died in 1980, Josip Broz Tito. Now there are all sorts of stories about him, who he was, where he came from, who appointed him. But we could travel all over the world, had access to both Western and Eastern culture and were not part of either NATO or Warsaw Pact and in fact he was big on non-alliance movement. We also had free education (even all post secondary education) and free medical care. Job security was very high, my mom for example started and retired in 1 company, as well as my dad. There were a lot of good things, definitely. On the other hand, religion was marginalized (at least in public), privately you could still celebrate religious holidays, but they were not recognized by the state. Nationalism was also a no-no and fiercely fought, especially right after the war. There were many marriages between people of different nationalities, a couple of my uncles married girls of different nationality, actually some of the tennis players what moved away and are citizens of other countries were from mixed marriages from these regions: Tomic, Petkovic, Mladenovic; also Ivanisevic has a Serbian father, Cilic has a Serbian mother, Nole's mother is Croatian, Ljubicic has a Muslim wife, to name few on top of my head.

I refer a lot to WWW2 because frankly a lot of what happened then had a lot of influence on what happened later on with the country. The events of WWW2 war were taught in school from the perspective of the winners, which were partisans in our country. Brotherhood and unity was the main motto, the country was rebuilt by its citizens, whatever bad happened in that war was being forgotten. Or so it was thought.

So @mrzz, I'll let you read this and see if you have follow up questions.


u know what i am thinking of with your explanation? not only that it is a BEAUTIFUL portrayal of what ''yugoslavia" was like -- whatever its own flaws and limitations were (but what country doesn't have those? even the most ''homogenous?") -

but that through that story -- the ''differences" that were there were not lost - even if , to my mind, TRAGIC in how they were ''resurrected" or ''strengthened as differences to the point of WAR and hatred...

where in the other picture -- croats , serbs, etc...intermarried , both across religion and 'ethnicity' and ADDED to EACH other's richness as a related culture.

this is the same in a sense -- but of course with , i think less tragic story (outside of being an occupied and colonized country) -- my home country philippiones.

MORE than serbia or yugoslavia or any european country , after all --

my country consists of thousands of islands...over 7 thousand..mostly smaller sized of course -- but quite several really quite large ...which would then be like a distinct ''nationality" or ethnicity of its own ..or some are so much larger (such as one called luzon in the the north, mindanao in the south, panay and negros nd others in the middle of the archipelago .etc...that could bear SEVERAL tribal or ethnic identities inside them ...

and if one would consider that these many ethnicities and 'tribes' belong to their own language groups -- which as we know language is OFTEN a signature of ;'cultural identity" and 'worldview" and ways of ''describing life"...

then the philippines is in many ways a ''nation of many ethniticities" or even ''nationalities" IF those is=lands, or language groups or ethnicities had ''declared their own national independence".

and thus -- we would have DOZENS rather than the handful of identities such as in yugoslavia or any single european ''nation"

YET in my country -- it is understood that whatever prejudices there are , buried or apparent (and there ARE) AMONG the ''identities" ...

it is STILL ONE people - ALL filipinos - a person speaking from a different language group marries another ..etc...mixture upon mixture upon mixture

so -- i for example: have cousins that are more ''eastern central islands facing the pacific" blooded because their dad fell in love with my mom's sister and moved their family THERE -- but MY mom comes from a very different ''ethnicity" or language group with its OWN customs and habits..

while still other cousins are more 'northern blooded" because THEIR dad from that north married into my mom's family and you can imagine the 'mixtures' so thick and so complex that notions of ''north'' and south as being ''not filipino'' is ABSURD. while yet a different set of cousins -- their father - my mom's brother from OUR language group (spanish/plus this particular language group in the mid-central islands -- )

their father married a CHINESE/spanish woman ..while yet the new president duterte -- mister ''foul mouth" who talks smut about obama and UN -- HE has chinese blood from his grandfather -- spanish/christian/MUSLIM blood from his mother's side...- WAS married to a MUSLIM woman from a STILL different tribe with ITS own language etc. etc. etc. etc.

withfilipinos therefore -- we can only understand each other IF we speak or adopt particular languages that are MORE commonly used for one reason or another through the generations -- and many therefore speak a few 'dialects" or languages -- many of which are completely ''alien" to others...

and then everyone can somehow get along with speaking a few 'nationally used" - more informally than not -- languages. with ONE adopted as the national official language . that everyone basically can understand...

but to filipinos it is nothign unusual to be in a crowd where DIFFERENT language or dialects are being spoken by different little groups in the SAME occasion -- and when finding others that they are acquainted with or firends or RELATED to -- but come from DIFFERENT original language or tribe or island or province gourps -- they all switch to the ''common language' and make the apporpriate adjustments, OR even translations - such as with explainign JOKES from one custom to another so that everyone can share in laughing or understanding...

what seems to me then is:

being that europe , and in particular yugoslavia ..and now serbia --

is a relatively SMALL over-all region with so many competing , but tightly packed ''countries" or 'identities" - there was bound to be so much strife - like rubbing shoulders with each other - it soon becomes very ''personal"...

as opposed to a country such as RUSSIA with its very, very wide land that its 100 plus ''nationalities" can more or less thrive in their particular regions of concentration LIKE independent countries - subject to a national state within which they find common ground WITHOUT stepping on each other's toes...

OR in a much smaller version -- MY ARCHIPELAGO country with ITS Dozens and dzens of ''little countries" with BARRIERS of water between them that it makes ''conflicts" of ''nationalism" very hard to reach to that level, and INSTEAD they SEEK each other out for some kind of ''unity" or ''companionship" or commonality.

BU Tthe basic elements are similar.

DIFFERENT IDENTITIES or language groups, customs, ways of internal social order quite distinct from others -- but somehow made to be ''one" people...and instead of being WARY of their 'differences' they find it is better to be celebrating their VARIETY .

this is why i often feel SO SAD watching what is happening in the balkans -- SLAVIC PEOPLES of such rich, beautiful cultures - such variety and wealth of creativity -- that history somehow has imposed so much strife or hatred that is so unnecessary.

and when i see that SERBIA is even being sliced apart with the kosovo business of ''greater albania" trying to elbow its way to more ''square kilometres" --

i feel so sad -- consider that -- when we get out of the ''level" of the REALLY big countries like russia, usa, canada, china, etc...

our smaller or mid-sized ones have plenty of problems to contend OTHER THAN hatreds because of a small parcel of land...

serbia at about 19,000 KILOMETERS square is about the size of a 'mid-size' island in the philippines -- which is over-all 300,000 square...(both of which are TINY countries compared to russia (but then what country CAN compare? lol) ..
and of 19,000 not all of that is arable probably...so where are SERBS going to go? so much of their presence has already been practically declared ''illegal" in other 'countries' that were once part of yugoslavia where ALL slavs of different ''identities" somehow lived together, LOVED and married and enriched each other -

but what is remembered is the HATRED -- rather than the LOVE for BEING ALL SLAVIC peoples.

that is what is so sad for me to see.

imagine -- NOW only discovering that CILIC , IVANISEVIC ARE ALSO SERBIAN? OR NOLE IS ALSO CROAT?

I MEAN -- what the hell is wrong with the world and with FOREIGNERS - REAL ONES - like the american MEDDLING in regions of slavic peoples who have had enough troubles of their own among each other AS SLAVS just to survive and thrive with their neighbors?

i hate such things. because of how they DESTROY so much GOOD in people and their cultures.
 
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teddytennisfan

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[QUOTE="Billie, .[/QUOTE]

i also recall an explanation by a SYRIAN friend of mine -- a doctor and one of 3 brothers who are all doctors and have their family practice with their 3 different specialties.

and he said:

'BEFORE the west and allies interfered in my country in these recent decades -- we all grew up with different tribes, different religions - christians, even jews, muslims, different sects among them too -- even atheist...

all education free from elementary to doctorate...health care free, housing support if needed...we were a socialist country and everyone SUPPORTED it -- WE even today under sanctions and probably because of it too -- still have a currency that is NOT attached to the US dollar ..but a national bank that doesn't owe anything to any IMF bank..so what our country earns is honest work on its own merits simply by ourindustry and merchandise...and our own economy...

since the USA and its allies interfered -- that is now destroyed, just like libya and iraq, just like venezuela, cuba, what they tried in vietnam, or russia, ...

"i am a doctor - even if i did take more advanced studies in france after emigrating becuse of the growing difficulties from western sanctions -- but i would never have afforded it to be a doctor unless we were given free education in syria ..but -- here i am - earning in dollars, paying taxes in dollars benefiting americans what MY country spent on ME to become a doctor..is that not draining the brains from syria by causing our economy to go down because of sanctions BEFORE even all these terrorists were sent to destroy it some more? "

see the pattern there? the SAME done to yugoslavia and serbia.they also did to russia int eh 1990's. same with country after country that ACTUALLY THRIVED and prospered peacefully - or at least to a great extent -- much in its OWN way of doing.

and WHY? because they REFUSED to bow and kneel before uncle sam and his ''friends".
or becuse they had resources so rich uncle sam MUST have it -- all of it. before ''navigating the oceans" to the NEXT victim...
 
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Billie

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Teddy, we have a saying: zavadi pa vladaj - which translates: make them fight amongst themselves and then you can rule. A lot of that has been going on in the last couple of decades in a lot of countries, it seems. And none of it is because they want to spread democracy or because of some humanitarian cause, that is just stuff for small children.

Once the hatred and war starts, good luck finding anything good in it. On the contrary, it just gets worse.
 
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Billie

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So one cannot help but to think that if there would be maybe more 50 years of communism, or better, of state unity, maybe all those differences could be forgotten or forgiven. There are probably people who like to keep somethings alive just to able to use it when they think is more convenient....

What happens to the families like the ones you mentioned, born out of marriages between different ethnical groups? I guess they faced enormous pressure both from outside and inside.... they are the symbol of unity, they are quite common in fact, as the examples from the tennis word you mention show, but in this side of the fence you do not see beautiful stories on the press about them...

I have no idea if we needed 50 more years or not. I now know more about my history then I did before 1990s. As for the mixed families, it all depended on their beliefs and preferences. Some stayed where they lived, some moved somewhere else. But that is what happed to all of us. There are a lot of different nationalities still living in Serbia and nobody is shouting to kill them or hang them unlike some other former republics.

Here is the former ambassador to YU at the time James Bisset again on Canadian TV on this topic in 2012:

 

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Ok, I am starting to get the picture. It is kind of what I expected, there was war -- with all that it brings -- and one side were picked to play the bad guy role. The former ambassador says on this video, and in other you posted too "atrocities were committed by both sides". One way to read this is that this war was "worst" (if that is possible) than a "normal" war. By the way, would you call it civil war? Because it, or they, have elements of different kinds of war (civil, independence, border...)


unlike some other former republics

So you are saying things are ugly elsewhere up to today? How this is an effect of the whole propaganda that convinced the rest of the world?
 

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sputniknews.com

NATO Warnings Can't Deter Bosnian Serbs From Celebrating Republika Srpska Day
Sputnik
On January 9, the residents of Republika Srpska, one of two self-governing entities which constitute the Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina, celebrated RS Day, a public holiday which commemorates the day it was founded in 1992.

The January 9 holiday has been the subject of tension between RS and the federal authorities of Bosnia and Hercegovina, including several Constitutional Court cases.

Last year the Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared the holiday unconstitutional after a legal challenge from the Bosniak member of the country's tripartite rotating presidency, Bakir Izetbegovic.

The Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina consists of three members: one Bosniak and one Croat from the territory of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and one Serb from Republika Srpska.

In September RS President Milorad Dodik challenged the authority of the Constitutional Court to strike down the legislation and held a referendum on the issue, in which 99.81 percent of voters in Republika Srpska supported an initiative to make the day a state holiday.

High Representative Outrages Bosnian Serbs With WWII Croatia Comparison

The day after this year's holiday, on January 10, the High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina Valentin Incko sought to remind Bosnian Serbs that their holiday remains unrecognized by the federal government. In doing so, he caused outrage in RS by comparing the celebration of January 9 with that of the genocidal World War Two Independent State of Croatia.

"For the international community, the only entities which exist are those in the Dayton Agreement, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska, which gained their legitimacy November 21 1995 in Dayton," said Incko, whose job it is to oversee the Dayton Agreement.

"If we are going to start celebrating holidays like January 9, then some people might start to celebrate, let's say, April 10, the day the Independent State of Croatia was established. I think that that doesn't occur to anybody, and it is necessary to look towards the future, not the past," Incko said.

The

Independent State of Croatia (NDH
) was a puppet regime established by Germany and Italy in 1941 following the invasion and occupation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. According to varying estimates, between 83,000 and 700,000 Serbs, Roma and Jews were murdered under the fascist regime, which established several death camps including the

infamous Jasenovac complex
.

Historian Cedomir Antic, who has written a book on the history of Republika Srpska, told Sputnik Srbija that the two dates are completely incomparable, and urged Incko to hold history in higher regard.

"Does he really think, since RS is in a way under the guardianship of the EU which it wishes to join, that he is the guardian of a genocidal creation, as Hitler was the protector of NDH? What are all the implications which such irresponsible behavior can have? Unfortunately, he is an overpaid person who doesn't have the powers held by his predecessors. He is powerless, but as just as bad and malicious as Paddy Ashdown was," Antic said.

"In several judgments, particularly in the judgment of General Perisic, the Hague Tribunal clearly stressed that the RS Army was not a criminal army. It was neither the SS nor Wehrmacht. In the 20 years since the end of the war, that day (January 9) has been celebrated. Now it has been abolished by a court whose mandate has expired. However, it is a serious problem when the High Representative, who claims to be neutral, says that. It never occurred to him to say that March 1, the day that is celebrated in the Bosniak parts of the Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina, is unconstitutional," Antic said.

The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the other entity which constitutes Bosnia and Herzegovina, does not celebrate January 9. It celebrates March 1, 1992, the day when it declared independence from Yugoslavia, but this day is not celebrated in Republika Srpska.

The historian said that Incko, who is an Austrian diplomat, should pay more attention to history rather than calling for others to forget the past.

"Speaking of continuities, why doesn't Mr. Inzko talk about the continuity of his country? Austria was not a victim of the Third Reich. The Austrians, unfortunately, were a bastion of the Third Reich. They accounted for 7 percent of the population and 50 percent of the war criminals. They are a country which, thanks to successful diplomacy, has managed to convince the world that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler German, and neither one nor the other is true. So Mr. Inzko should consider being a little more moderate. I believe that he is an antifascist and has good intentions, but, unfortunately, those good intentions are not visible from his work, "said Antic.

NATO warns military not to participate in RS day celebrations

© Photo: Facebook/ Студенти за истину

Incko was not the only international representative in Sarajevo to criticize the RS day celebrations. Giselle M. Wilz, Commander and Senior Military Representative of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Headquarters in Sarajevo, said that the participation of the Third (Republika Srpska) Infantry Regiment is unconstitutional and warned participants that they face disciplinary action for taking part.

In response RS President Milorad Dodik called on NATO to stay out of the country's internal affairs, and reiterated that RS is following a policy of military neutrality.

"This is unequivocal pressure on the local judiciary, one of many other instances in which they (NATO) are trying to direct (action) against soldiers and officials who participated in the celebration of the Day of the Republic," Dodik said.

He added that Republika Srpska is considering withdrawing from an agreement on formation of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

"We should make the first step and to gather Republika Srpska's politicians and officials to find out if it is possible and politically beneficial to send an application on withdrawal from the agreement on Armed Forces to allow Republika Srpska to exit the deal," Dodik said.

Igor Gajic, a political analyst from Banja Luka, told Sputnik that in spite of NATO's rhetoric there won't be any consequences for the Bosnian Serb soldiers taking part in the parade, and said they could quite easily form their own army.

The army of Bosnia and Hercegovina is made up of three regiments, "one for each nation," and if necessary Republika Srpska could pull its soldiers out of that arrangement and form an army on the basis of its regiment, Gajic said.

Petar Kunic, Dean of the Law Faculty of Banja Luka University, told Sputnik that there is no reason why the soldiers shouldn't take part in the parade; furthermore, they have done so before.

"Mladen Ivanic, a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Hercegovina and a supreme commander, is taking part in the celebrations. He ordered the parade, and nobody could forbid him from doing so. Muslim units of the Bosnia and Hercegovina army regularly hold prayers, and nobody is bothered about that. So why can't this regiment participate in the celebrations in Banja Luka," he asked.
 
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