Translation

[mrzz]

Great and informative post, @Jelenafan. We have a very similar taste. I was surprised by your comment following the "The winter of our discontent"... but anyway I won't look for reviews of the book, I will only get frustrated, one way or the other. It is a marvelous book.

The end of "East of Eden" for me is the greatest book end of all times. When I was reading it, in the last, say, 4 or 5 pages, I knew the end would be epic, my heartbeat was around 120 bpm all the time, In the last page, I had my hand covering the last paragraph just to prevent my eyes from betraying me and peeking on it. When I finally read the last words I almost had a stroke (I am not kidding). It is simply an astonishingly deep and profound work of art.

The end of "The Grapes of Wrath" is also fantastic, but in a different kind of way. The symbolism of it is beyond description.

About "The Possessed", is a book I really enjoyed. If you are a FD fan, then it is an instant win. In case you're not, one thing that might help to absorb the book is to get to know the Russian "environment" at that time. IMO, when it comes to "immortal" and "timeless" writers, Dostoyevsky is a very peculiar one, as he constantly dialogues with his time, sometimes even in petty, childish and immature ways. The fact that he is amazingly good and timeless regardless of that speaks volumes about his literary qualities.

Thanks for your list. Quite a few titles there I haven't read, and I will surely look out for them. If I may suggest you something (given our similar taste), is Brazilian Machado de Assis (Penguim Classics is one collection that I am sure has some translations to English). I don't know the translations as Portuguese is my mother tongue, but I guess it will sound (or read) well in English.

 

[mrzz]

Did you read Ulysses in Portuguese or English? Have you ever tried Finnegans Wake? I find it impenetrable, and, in the spirit of the thread, can’t imagine a translation being possible.

Sorry for taking so long to answer that, it is the first weekend that I don't have to work in months.

I read (or better, did not read) it in Portuguese. I guess now my English is good enough to give it a go on the original. I have some sort of prejudice against this book, given what I read about it, but I like to defy my prejudices now and then and often I find myself disagreeing with the whole world about a lot of things, so I really should give it a try. The fact that you mentioned the book in the same phrase of the Portrait raised the odds of me reading it by a 32423423487.94 factor.

I am not sure if I mentioned it on this thread already, but a while ago I bought a book that fits precisely on this thread. Is the correspondence of a Brazilian author, Guimarães Rosa, with his Italian translator. It is particularly interesting because GR plays a lot with language, on one hand he explores some local idioms, and on the other he creates some new words, so he is surely a tough author to translate. Translating it to Italian poses some particular challenges, one temptation is to try to use some words in one of the many Italian dialects, but there are zero dialects in Brazil (which is odd given the size of the country and the multi-ethnic nature of it). We have some "localisms", but no dialects. Anyway, it should be a fun reading, considering still that I speak Italian (and so did GR). I expect to be able to read it and give some feedback here.

 

[Horsa]

@Moxie @mrzz @Horsa

Has anyone read Salman Rushdie’s latest novel Quichotte? It’s a modern version of Don Quixote.

I saw this in my local library today & remembered your recommendation. Thank you very much. I might borrow it later though as we've got a Dickensian Xmas fayre at work on Saturday (we had the normal Xmas fayre last week & I was teaching children how to make Xmas tree decs. & clearing up all the glitter afterwards) & I've been given the job of being the Dickensian Carol singer so I'm reminding myself of all the Carols they had then, the tunes they sung to & what key they sung in, timing & words etc. so I'm quite busy at the moment.

 

[mrzz]

I saw this in my local library today & remembered your recommendation. Thank you very much. I might borrow it later

Your post triggered a confusion I often make, even if unconsciously, as I do know the words. In Portuguese, Library is "Biblioteca" while book shop is "livraria" (which sounds a bit like library), so often when I read "library" I think of "livraria/book shop" instead. So when I read your post I thought, "oh, look at that little smarty-pants managing to borrow a book from a book shop". I was about to make a comment when finally the penny dropped....

 

[Horsa]

Your post triggered a confusion I often make, even if unconsciously, as I do know the words. In Portuguese, Library is "Biblioteca" while book shop is "livraria" (which sounds a bit like library), so often when I read "library" I think of "livraria/book shop" instead. So when I read your post I thought, "oh, look at that little smarty-pants managing to borrow a book from a book shop". I was about to make a comment when finally the penny dropped....

That's similar to the French. If I remember rightly un bibliotheque is the French for library & une librairie is book shop. I agree. Your word for book shop looks a lot like our word for library. Haha!

 

[Moxie]

I decided to move this part of our book conversation over to the Translation thread, on @tented's suggestion. Discussing the notion of translating "A Clockwork Orange" into any other language, or in this case Portuguese, for @mrzz, Tented wrote this:

"The very idea of translating this is bizarre. (And a good candidate for the Translation thread.) The original has basically an invented language, so a translator would need to come up with another invented language. It reminds me of something I read years ago concerning Beckett trying to translate Finnegans Wake into French. The main aspect I remember is that it involved a tremendous amount of drinking."
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That IS funny, and I also know plenty of people who consider Finnegan's Wake pretty incomprehensible, even in English. It does bring us back a bit to the question of whether something is actually translatable at all, or not. I am of the opinion that a good translator/great writer can make an intelligent stab at it, and a great book deserves to be read by those who don't know the original language, even if something is lost. In the case of "A Clockwork Orange," I would suggest to Mrzz that you try it in English, knowing that there is made up slang in it. Or, since you didn't love it, at least read some to see how it sounds in the original. Perhaps it will give you a new appreciation.

The problem for the translator with invented language is to really, deeply understand what the rules of the language were, for the author, and create a similar code in the new language. That seems daunting, but it is the work of the translator to find the intention behind all of the words, anyway, and how they play together, even without having invented words.

 

[mrzz]

I would suggest to Mrzz that you try it in English, knowing that there is made up slang in it. Or, since you didn't love it, at least read some to see how it sounds in the original. Perhaps it will give you a new appreciation.

This makes a lot of sense -- in fact what doesn't make any sense was my stubbornness to read the translation. In general I do not like experiments with language -- often sound artificial to me. But I do like one Brazilian author who is known for it, Guimarães Rosa (often compared to Joyce), but anyway he "invents" language in a very peculiar way, he explores regionalisms and builds new words that are immediately understandable from context and sound (for native speakers obviously) -- something I guess is not true for Joyce and Burguess. Actually, I mentioned in this thread a book I bought that has the correspondence between GR and his Italian translator, it is on my list...

...but if I happen to come across an Clockwork Orange edition in the original language, I will buy and have a go at it.

Now regarding the substance of Moxie's post, yes, I do think that in most cases books are translatable. I have read a limited number of books in both original and translated languages, and in those specific cases my impression was that the translation was indeed able to capture most of it. But in extreme cases like the ones we are talking about, well...

Now that I am thinking of it, I see what annoyed me about Clockwork Orange's translation, and in general for translation of anything containing slang. I guess that it is valid for most countries that slang varies heavily from region to region (this is extremely true here), and the translator will most likely end up choosing words associated with one region. This alone most of the times gives a very odd feel to the book. And it is not limited to regionalism, slang often is associated with specific groups, so the associations each reader will make are almost random... maybe it is impossible after all.

 

[tented]

I decided to move this part of our book conversation over to the Translation thread, on @tented's suggestion. Discussing the notion of translating "A Clockwork Orange" into any other language, or in this case Portuguese, for @mrzz, Tented wrote this:

"The very idea of translating this is bizarre. (And a good candidate for the Translation thread.) The original has basically an invented language, so a translator would need to come up with another invented language. It reminds me of something I read years ago concerning Beckett trying to translate Finnegans Wake into French. The main aspect I remember is that it involved a tremendous amount of drinking."
__________________
That IS funny, and I also know plenty of people who consider Finnegan's Wake pretty incomprehensible, even in English. It does bring us back a bit to the question of whether something is actually translatable at all, or not. I am of the opinion that a good translator/great writer can make an intelligent stab at it, and a great book deserves to be read by those who don't know the original language, even if something is lost. In the case of "A Clockwork Orange," I would suggest to Mrzz that you try it in English, knowing that there is made up slang in it. Or, since you didn't love it, at least read some to see how it sounds in the original. Perhaps it will give you a new appreciation.

You’ve suggested with other books/poems that hearing them might help — a great suggestion. I think this might help @mrzz.


The book begins around 13:56 (the preface is read prior to that)

 

[Moxie]

^ What a good idea! I'm going to listen to it, too.

 

[Horsa]

Sometimes authors notes help. I don't normally read author's notes but sometimes I have to. (I'm having to at the moment as some Greek has been introduced. I think it's Greek anyway. It looks like Greek lettering.)

 

[tented]

Sometimes authors notes help. I don't normally read author's notes but sometimes I have to. (I'm having to at the moment as some Greek has been introduced. I think it's Greek anyway. It looks like Greek lettering.)

Sounds like it’s all Greek to you.

 

[mrzz]

I don't normally read author's notes but sometimes I have to.

We have a Brazilian author (a philosopher) who is known for an extensive use of notes. She got to the extreme that in one of her books the notes were published as a separate volume. You would love her!

 

[Horsa]

We have a Brazilian author (a philosopher) who is known for an extensive use of notes. She got to the extreme that in one of her books the notes were published as a separate volume. You would love her!

I don't mind author's notes when they're needed as in when what has been written contains plenty of complex vocab, terms & concepts. What I hate is when author's treat their reader's like idiots by telling them things they already know or could easily work out for themselves. For example, I was reading a book which told me tak' was take, auld meant old, ain meant own, wheer meant where & tha meant you as if I couldn't work it out for myself. I don't like having to read author's notes as I feel like an idiot for needing them normally, however, I shall make an exception in this case.

Wow! She does love her notes. Does she type them because what she says is extremely complicated or because she wants to treat her reader's like idiots? (She's not daft. She gets more money selling her books in 2 volumes rather than 1.) I'd give her a go anyway. Lol.

 

[Horsa]

Sounds like it’s all Greek to you.

Lol. That bit was. Actually, most of the book so far is English with a smattering of French which I learnt at school & was brilliant at. It's only the odd word that's in Greek. I'm loving the story so far. I'm rather hard on myself & aren't happy unless I understand everything. I hate author's notes as I like to think I can manage without them though & I was so busy concentrating on the odd word to see the full story. I couldn't see the wood for the trees so to speak.

 

[Horsa]

Oops! I'm going to risk getting in trouble here & Mr. Zz calling the moderators on me for the 3rd time recently by asking something that is kind of on topic but kind of off-topic too. Lol. I've been reading about the Arthashastra while reading up on equine history & apparently it had a full section about the superintendents of horses but it was written in Sanskrit & I don't know any Sanskrit & might want to see for myself. Does anyone know where I can find an English, French or Spanish version of it or at least just the afore-mentioned section, please?

 

[mrzz]

Mr. Zz calling the moderators on me for the 3rd time recently

I gave up calling on these moderators. They are the worst moderators of all time. We should have moderators of moderators, to teach these useless people what it means to moderate, which is obviously violently punish the ones that do not agree with me and/or do not do exactly as I say. You know, thread destroyers JUST LIKE YOU.

I don't know any Sanskrit

Who the hell does not know Sanskrit? I mean, haven't we any kind of rules here? How come that someone that does not know Sanskrit is allowed to even read our board, let alone write in it? I mean, don't we have mod... oh, forget it.

 

[Horsa]

I gave up calling on these moderators. They are the worst moderators of all time. We should have moderators of moderators, to teach these useless people what it means to moderate, which is obviously violently punish the ones that do not agree with me and/or do not do exactly as I say. You know, thread destroyers JUST LIKE YOU.



Who the hell does not know Sanskrit? I mean, haven't we any kind of rules here? How come that someone that does not know Sanskrit is allowed to even read our board, let alone write in it? I mean, don't we have mod... oh, forget it.

Haha! Bloody ha! You cannot be serious. The moderators might have been busy. They have lives too, you know. I think the moderators are very helpful & friendly. How can they punish people violently when they're not in the same room as them? They do, however, have kicking out buttons. Lol. Not everyone is going to agree with you. We've all got minds of our own. (I'm hoping so anyway.) Not everyone is going to obey you. That's life or c'est la vie if you prefer. I don't destroy threads most of the time. I thought we were friends.

Not everyone is as clever as you. Not many people where I live know Sanskrit. We do have rules. Look at the bottom of the page. There's a blue strip with white writing on that is clickable. The 2nd option is terms & rules. If you read them the ability to read Sanskrit is not essential. You think people who don't know Sanskrit are too stupid to read this board never mind comment on it. The question is how thick are we really. You don't even want to interact with me now because I don't know Sanskrit. Lol.

 

[Horsa]

I guess as I annoyed Mr. Zz by saying something here other than what he'd originally set this thread up to discuss I'd best say something relevant if my words aren't so unwanted because I can't speak Sanskrit, that is. Lol.

I'm very sorry, Tented but what I have to say is short & not as detailed, informative & interesting as the videos & conversation you shared or Mr. Zz's original piece.

When I know both the languages in question, translation for me happens instantaneously whether spoken or written. By that I mean I read the piece & the words automatically translate themselves into those of the language I'm supposed to translate them into & I write them out or speak them & the same goes for listening. The same goes for me writing poetry, no effort is required. Don't ask me how I manage to do it like that as I just don't know.