First Big Title As A Predictive Indicator

El Dude

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The fact that no player born in 1989 or later has not only not won a Slam, but hasn't won a "big title" (Slam, World Tour Finals, Masters), is rather alarming. The youngest big titleists are Marin Cilic and Juan Martin del Potro, both of whom were born in 1988 and turn 29 years old later this year. This is an unprecedented situation, at least in Open Era history.

But let's not belabor just how bad the younger generations are, especially those players born in 1989-93ish. Instead, I wanted to ask the question: At What Age Did Slam Winners first win a big title?

First, a caveat. The importance of different titles has changed over the years, which is reflected in the fact the names of different tournaments has changed as the ATP tour has changed. But there is some degree of similarity between, say, the Grand Prix tournaments of the 1970s and the current ATP Tour Masters 1000 tournaments. For the sake of this inquiry, all equivalent tournaments will be considered under the umbrella "big titles" - including current tournaments and their predecessors. This includes Slams, World Tour Finals and other year-end championships, Golden Cup, WCT Finals, Masters, Grand Prix, etc.

OK, let's cut to the chase. I looked at all multi-Slam winners of the Open Era, in two categories depending upon number of Slams won. Below are the oldest age at which players won their first big title:

6+ Slam winners (12): 20 years old
2-4 Slam winners (15): 28 years old

The first was a bit surprising. There are 12 players who won 6+ Slams during the Open Era, and all won their first big title at age 20 or younger. This is quite different from first Slam, as Ivan Lendl didn't win his first until age 24. In other words, there's not a lot of play in the twelve precedents: ALL twelve won a big title at a very young age (I didn't include John Newcombe, Rod Laver, or Ken Rosewall because they all began well before the Open Era began, so it is difficult to ascertain when they won their first "big" title).

The second category is quite old, but only because of one player: Stan Wawrinka. Other than him, the oldest age is 24 (Patrick Rafter), with the possible exception of Arthur Ashe, who won his first Slam at age 25, but it is unclear if he won a big title before that. But the main takeaway is that Stan set a new precedent, effectively demolishing all "rules" about when a multi-Slam winner can start winning big. That said, the vast majority of 2-4 Slam winners won their first big title by age 24-25.

So let's look at this in the context of current young players. Below is a list of some of the better active young players with their current (as of 5/9) age:

27: Kei Nishikori
26: Milos Raonic, David Goffin
25: Grigor Dimitrov, Pablo Carreno Busta
24: Jack Sock, Bernard Tomic, Diego Schwartzman
23: Dominic Thiem, Lucas Pouille, Jiri Vesely
22: Nick Kyrgios, Kyle Edmund, Thiago Monteiro, Adam Pavlasek
21: Daniil Medvedev, Yoshihito Nishioka
20: Alexander Zverev, Borna Coric, Karen Khachanov, Hyeon Chung, Jared Donaldson, Ernesto Escobedo
19: Frances Tiafoe, Andrey Rublev, Taylor Fritz, Alex de Minaur, Alexander Bublik, Stefan Kozlov, Reilly Opelka, Akira Santillan, Michael Mmoh
18: Casper Ruud, Duckhee Lee, Denis Shapovalov, Stefanos Tsitsipas, Mikael Ymer, Daniel Altmaier, Corentin Moutet, Jay Clarke
16: Felix Auger Aliassime

So think about this: Every player age 21 and older--and soon to include Khachanov, Donaldson, and Chung--is disqualified from the precedents of the Open Era. If any of those players are going to be all-time greats, they will have to set a new precedent on the order of Stan Wawrinka, that is "be the Wawrinka of all-time greats."

This also means that all of those players age 20, are "on notice." Three of them turn 21 within a month or two, all but Zverev turn 21 this year. So it may be that come December, only Alex Zverev still can reach the benchmark set by the twelve previous 6+ Slam winners, and win his first big title before his 21st birthday next April.

We'll be watching...
 

mrzz

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I have not looked, but maybe Djokovic has skewed completely the data. I explain:

By current standards, the "easiest" (and also more frequent) big title is a Masters 1000. But Djokovic simply won them in buckets in the last 5 or 6 years. I guess he simply shut the door on an entire generation. (Yes, I know that the whole big 3 + Murray are ultimately responsible for this, but Djokovic stands out).
 

El Dude

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Yes, Novak on hard Masters but Rafa on clay. Consider that from 2005-13, Rafa won 18 of 27 clay Masters - that's two-thirds over a nine-year period!

For Novak it is 25 of 54 Masters from 2011-16 - or 46%. Almost half of all Masters over a six year period is incredible, especially when you consider he played in 48 of them, so he actually won more than half of those he played in during those six years.
 

mrzz

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Yep, you're completely right. I was thinking more of the last five to six years, which is basically the period where you would expect a lot of players on your list to win something, so Djokovic's results came to mind.

As you put, Nadal's dominance on the clay masters is even stronger, but the bulk years are basically a generation before.

Take them both together and there's not much left...
 

Moxie

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Good write up, Dude. I just heard today that when Novak turns 30 next Monday, all of the top 5 players will be 30+, which is apparently unprecedented in the history of the ATP. (Andy turned 30 yesterday. They also said that 23 of the top 100 are over 30.) Maybe there will be a forgiveness for the younger ones to win a big trophy and still reach great heights. I think Sasha Zverev has a solid chance to get one before turning 21, though.
 

El Dude

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Good write up, Dude. I just heard today that when Novak turns 30 next Monday, all of the top 5 players will be 30+, which is apparently unprecedented in the history of the ATP. (Andy turned 30 yesterday. They also said that 23 of the top 100 are over 30.) Maybe there will be a forgiveness for the younger ones to win a big trophy and still reach great heights. I think Sasha Zverev has a solid chance to get one before turning 21, though.

Yeah, crazy old top 5 but I'm guessing it won't last the entire year. If this is the year that Stan doesn't win a big title, which he's done three years in a row, he'll drop out of the top 5. Also, if Novak and/or Andy don't turn things around, they could slip out of the top 5. Rafa and Roger are all but guaranteed to finish in the top 5.

And yes, there are a lot of old guys on tour, but there is also a youth movement. The low-point in terms of young players was probably 2012, when there were no teenagers in the year-end top 200 (!). Since then, though, more and more young players have been showing up in the rankings. A bit more comparison:

Age 20 and under in top 100: 7 now, 2 in 2012
Teenagers in top 250: 14 now, 0 in 2012

Given that there are still tons of 30+ year olds playing in the top 100, and that there are more and more younger players, this implies that it is the middle group--the guys that should be in their prime--that are weak. This isn't surprising, of course.

At the beginning of the year, I tentatively predicted that Thiem would win a clay Masters and Zverev or Kyrgios win a late-year hardcourt Masters. That was before Rafa reclaimed his crown, so the Thiem prediction might not come to pass. Regardless, I really hope that someone new wins one, and preferably one of these younger guys.
 
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Moxie

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Thiem still has a shot at Rome, and I agree with the prediction for late this year re: Zverev or Kyrgios. Paris-Bercy has often been a good opportunity for a new champion, as everyone at the top is pretty tired by then. Though Djokovic and Murray may not be as tired as usual if they don't start reaching the later-stages of tournaments soon.
 

El Dude

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Yeah, the skeptic in me says that Andy and Novak will reconfigure and dominant starting in North America, with none of the young guns having a chance to breakthrough. We shall see.
 

Moxie

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Yeah, the skeptic in me says that Andy and Novak will reconfigure and dominant starting in North America, with none of the young guns having a chance to breakthrough. We shall see.
Yeah, long way to go for that. And I'd say Zverev, in particular, is focused, improving fast, and extremely impatient for big wins. (In a good way.) I've been impressed with his improvement on clay, just in the past few weeks, and this may never be a great surface for him. Even if Andy and Novak pull their games back together later this year, it may not be enough to hold off the Sasha everywhere. As for Kyrgios, I'll be looking for the coaching effect when the hip heals.
 

El Dude

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Yeah, "The Sascha's" (lol, btw) trajectory is clear - he's moving up, at a steady pace. I too have been impressed with his clay performance.

As for Nick, at some point he is just going to blow past everyone. Woe to the rest of the field when he does, because once he gets a taste of winning big he might be hard to stop for a few years.
 

Moxie

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Yeah, "The Sascha's" (lol, btw) trajectory is clear - he's moving up, at a steady pace. I too have been impressed with his clay performance.

As for Nick, at some point he is just going to blow past everyone. Woe to the rest of the field when he does, because once he gets a taste of winning big he might be hard to stop for a few years.
LOL...I didn't intend "The Sasha," but I like it! Maybe I'll keep it. :) I also agree about Kyrgios. I know there's a line of demarcation between those that buy into Nick and those that think the court jester has no clothes. @mrzz @Kieran, to name a few. I find some of his shots to be just gob-smacking, and there's a real creativity there. Call it show-boating if you like, but I think creativity and improv skills on the court are a kind of genius. What's to be seen is how he harnesses all of it.
 

El Dude

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Yes, exactly. He could be Mark Philippoussis or he could win 4-5 Slams, a bunch of Masters, and spend some time at #1...I wouldn't be surprised with any variation in-between.
 

Moxie

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Yes, exactly. He could be Mark Philippoussis or he could win 4-5 Slams, a bunch of Masters, and spend some time at #1...I wouldn't be surprised with any variation in-between.
I guess I get the analogy, in terms of career, but he's WAY more talented than Philippoussis. I'd rather compare him to David Nalbandian. If he doesn't do some version of what he's capable of, I'll see him on the level of Nalbandian as squandered talent.
 

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LOL...I didn't intend "The Sasha," but I like it! Maybe I'll keep it. :) I also agree about Kyrgios. I know there's a line of demarcation between those that buy into Nick and those that think the court jester has no clothes. @mrzz @Kieran, to name a few. I find some of his shots to be just gob-smacking, and there's a real creativity there. Call it show-boating if you like, but I think creativity and improv skills on the court are a kind of genius. What's to be seen is how he harnesses all of it.

I am not sure if understood exactly the expression, but I am not with those that think that Kyrgios is a clown, a punk or whatever. I just really disagree with people about what are his virtues and shortcomings, and I could make a pretty good case, but unfortunately I don´t have the time, at least for now. IMO he is a good player, a future constant top ten, but anything more than that is possible but in no way guaranteed.
 

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I am not sure if understood exactly the expression, but I am not with those that think that Kyrgios is a clown, a punk or whatever. I just really disagree with people about what are his virtues and shortcomings, and I could make a pretty good case, but unfortunately I don´t have the time, at least for now. IMO he is a good player, a future constant top ten, but anything more than that is possible but in no way guaranteed.
Nothing is guaranteed, but some of us see real talent and fizz in his game. If you don't see it, well, you don't. Kygios is a work in progress, and we'll all see how that shakes out in the longer term. I, for one, am hoping that he proves to be the real deal, and that someone can wrestle his craziness to the ground and make him a world beater. I think he's got at least something like the chops for it.
 

El Dude

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There's a middle ground between true great and second tier, and I think that's where Kyrgios will land. In my opinion he is more talented than the Tsonga/Berdych types, but doesn't have the mentality of a true great. But I think he will win big tournaments, spend some time in the top 5, and maybe even win a Slam or three. But I don't see more than that.

He also could be the type that reaches two or three Slam finals but never wins one, always imploding. Even so, I do think he'll at least win a few Masters, maybe the YEC.

But what makes Kyrgios so interesting is that his future is so variable. He has the talent of a multi-Slam winner and top 5 player, but could also end up being a perpetually frustrated, angry man who never wins big.
 

mightyjeditribble

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There's a middle ground between true great and second tier, and I think that's where Kyrgios will land. In my opinion he is more talented than the Tsonga/Berdych types, but doesn't have the mentality of a true great. But I think he will win big tournaments, spend some time in the top 5, and maybe even win a Slam or three. But I don't see more than that.

He also could be the type that reaches two or three Slam finals but never wins one, always imploding. Even so, I do think he'll at least win a few Masters, maybe the YEC.

But what makes Kyrgios so interesting is that his future is so variable. He has the talent of a multi-Slam winner and top 5 player, but could also end up being a perpetually frustrated, angry man who never wins big.

I am not sure that I agree that he is more talented than Tsonga - who I think was actually extremely exciting and talented, but suffered from the competition.

But Kyrgios likely won't face the same level of competition when at his prime. While I really can't stand him, I do think that he has the potential to win a few slams, if he gets himself together.

I always think that rooting against a player to succeed is a negative thing and don't want to succumb to it, but have to admit that at least part of me hopes that your second alternative above turns out to be the case ... He just seems like such an a******e.
 

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I really see Kyrgios quite differently from most here (but maybe close to what @mightyjeditribble thinks). I guess he might win a few slams exactly because of his head: I have seen him playing his best exactly at clutch moments in big matches. And his best (sorry to repeat it) is quite simple: serve big, rip the ball in case it come backs floating. But, one way or another, that´s a hell of a virtue. He might give up early in a few (as he did recently with Nadal), yes, but we don´t see him imploding midway a competitive match.

But point is that other guys who have similar age are starting to put their noses ahead of him. Zverev just won a masters and Thiem is now a top 10 for a while (in fact he is #7, and has twice as many points than Kyrgios). My point is: Kyrgios gets a lot of attention, while the others get the bigger results. It could go on just like that...
 
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mightyjeditribble

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I really see Kyrgios quite differently from most here (but maybe close to what @mightyjeditribble thinks). I guess he might win a few slams exactly because of his head: I have seen him playing his best exactly at clutch moments in big matches. And his best (sorry to repeat it) is quite simple: serve big, rip the ball in case it come backs floating. But, one way or another, that´s a hell of a virtue. He might give up early in a few (as he did recently with Nadal), yes, but we don´t see him imploding midway a competitive match.

But point is that other guys who have similar age are starting to put their noses ahead of him. Zverev just won a masters and Thiem is now a top 10 for a while (in fact he is #7, and has twice as many points than Kyrgios). My point is: Kyrgios gets a lot of attention, while the others get the bigger results. It could go on just like that...

Yes, whatever else you may think of Kyrgios, he does bring it in the big moments.