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Federberg

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I'm not making everything racist. I'm saying that some things really are, though, and ignoring them is blind. Do you really not see Trump calling immigrants "rapists and criminals", and saying that black people come from shithole countries as racist?
while I have some sympathy for your opinion, I think that what he's doing is exploiting the racism of some of his voters (a smaller segment than you might think), and "owning the libs". The man is a sociopath, he'll do anything to control the news cycle. I honestly believe that if race wasn't such a sensitive issue in America he would try other things. Am I saying it's good that he does these things? Hell no! But I honestly believe that reflexively labelling these things as racist not only devalues actual racism, but it plays into his hands. It's a trap, the classic banana in the tailpipe, and I really wish the opposition would look past it and ask themselves so why's he going back to race/immigration/trans... what's he really worried about.. focus on that!
 

Murat B.

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I'm not making everything racist. I'm saying that some things really are, though, and ignoring them is blind. Do you really not see Trump calling immigrants "rapists and criminals", and saying that black people come from shithole countries as racist? I could go on, but you know what he has said, and many of his ilk and his surrogates. Please don't believe that old trope that it's liberals that make everything about race.

We've had many conversations about how the elections went. Why don't just tell me what it is you want to say, and stop being coy.
Moxie, it is really simple and no one is being coy. I am just asking why you think Trump won. You had over a year to form an opinion. Look at it like your guy in tennis losing a match :). You usually have some ideas, right? Same here:

-You say Trump is racist. Yet he increased his black vote by 10%, got 20% overall.
-You say he hates immigrants but as a gauge, he got the most Latino vote of any Republican candidate in history at 46%
-You probably think he is a misogynist too ( don't want to put words in your mouth, just guessing) and yet he increased his female vote from 46% to 48% from the previous election.
-He won every swing state.

The guy was already in office for 4 years before Biden. There are no surprises with him. Everyone knows who he is. So I am simply asking, why did the guy win in your opinion.? It is REALLY not too much to ask.
 

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I don’t necessarily think Trump is racist, as such, I just think he says shit, he’s not a “politician” and as such, he’s almost comically unfiltered. But is he racist? He’s certainly portrayed as such by the people who label everyone who disagrees with them as fascist, racist and Nazi. But you know, when I see white democrats whining about something as simple and sensible as voter ID, claiming it’s racist because black people are presumably too stupid and incapable to provide some, no matter how simplistic it’s made for them, I think that in itself is racist.

When Joe Biden told black people “you ain’t black,” that was racist, and so was the assumption behind it.
 
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mrzz

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I love @Moxie but this is just too fun. @Murat B. , I forbid you to answer the question in the next 10 posts (by the way, I don't know the answer either. My take would be "because he is fat and americans are fat too".
 
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Murat B.

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I love @Moxie but this is just too fun. @Murat B. , I forbid you to answer the question in the next 10 posts (by the way, I don't know the answer either. My take would be "because he is fat and americans are fat too".
Hey, I love @Moxie too ! I met her all the way back when I was a liberal myself ! I am still a classical liberal but these days it is called conservative. Go figure...
And your answer is wrong ! ;)
 
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Moxie

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while I have some sympathy for your opinion, I think that what he's doing is exploiting the racism of some of his voters (a smaller segment than you might think), and "owning the libs". The man is a sociopath, he'll do anything to control the news cycle. I honestly believe that if race wasn't such a sensitive issue in America he would try other things. Am I saying it's good that he does these things? Hell no! But I honestly believe that reflexively labelling these things as racist not only devalues actual racism, but it plays into his hands. It's a trap, the classic banana in the tailpipe, and I really wish the opposition would look past it and ask themselves so why's he going back to race/immigration/trans... what's he really worried about.. focus on that!
I know you and I are close on this one. I do think that Trump is enough of a grifter and an opportunist to have seen a political lane and have exploited it. (I'll give him credit for the savvy in that. He also recognized grievance, which is natural to him.) He may not be so much a racist, as a person who speaks horribly of nearly everyone, but he certainly makes a good show of it, and speaks in racist dog-whistles with a facility that makes me think it comes from within. He's immoral enough to talk like a racist, whether he means it, or just exploits it.

Anyway, I'm not just talking about Trump when I talk about the racism on the far-right that has bubbled up so much since Trump has made it easier for them. The whole thing about Tucker Carlson hosting Nick Fuentes recently. (And don't forget that Trump had him to dinner at Mar-a-Lago.) This has caused some real consternation bordering on rift in the party, (along with an accumulation of other things. You know what I mean.) You say that the racists amongst his voters is "a smaller segment" than I might think. You don't really know how much of a segment I think it it, (probably less than you think,) but I also don't know who you know how large it is, since it's not really a question that gets answered in polls. LOL. Anyway, my point to @Murat B. is that I think he's soft-pedaling it to say that it's a bridge too far from proper Conservatives. Maybe, but it doesn't mean that it hasn't blossomed in an ugly and virulent way, here in the US.

I don't think that moral humans can let some of this pass without comment. What I do think is wrong is when some of my brethren on the left paint all who support Trump with a racist brush. It's not only unfair to many of his supporters, it hurts our argument with centrist voters we want to win back, not alienate. In that sense, I would agree it's a trap.
 
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Moxie

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I don’t necessarily think Trump is racist, as such, I just think he says shit, he’s not a “politician” and as such, he’s almost comically unfiltered. But is he racist? He’s certainly portrayed as such by the people who label everyone who disagrees with them as fascist, racist and Nazi. But you know, when I see white democrats whining about something as simple and sensible as voter ID, claiming it’s racist because black people are presumably too stupid and incapable to provide some, no matter how simplistic it’s made for them, I think that in itself is racist.

When Joe Biden told black people “you ain’t black,” that was racist, and so was the assumption behind it.
You have a basic misunderstanding of the voter ID issue. Let me try explaining it again. Many people here do, too, and now they're talking about having people bring passports and all kinds of nonsense to the polling places.

The important time to show proof of citizenship is when you REGISTER to vote. When you show up to vote, you present yourself, and sign your signature, which is comparable to the one on file. That's how it works in New York. Some states have you show an ID. Personally, I don't see how that is necessary. Even in NYC, either they know me, or they certainly have recorded that I have voted. I can't show up again. No one can vote for me.

The historical reasons for not disenfranchising voters (which doesn't mean only black voters, but historically, they were the most disenfranchised,) was that, back in the day, it was harder for poor people to get proper ID. Also, in the South, the rules kept changing to try to keep black people from voting. There were even some literacy tests, and poll taxes and all kinds of finagling going on. The purpose of the Voting Rights Act was to eliminate some of this blatant racism that was designed specifically to keep black people from voting, and to keep white people in power, even in major black districts, particularly in the south.

Certainly, times are different than they were in 1965. However, efforts to suppress the vote still go on, from the right. This includes the spreading of the notion that voter fraud is a problem in this country, which it is not. Trump has made a career of it. I given you many reasons before why it's hard for individuals to vote fraudulently. It's also a federal crime to do so, so what more do you need?

Demanding ID at the polling place still makes it easier to disenfranchise poor people. The homeless, for example, and they do have the right to vote. Voting is a sacred right in a democracy, and it's wrong to attempt to make it hard for people to vote. Plenty of tricks still go on, like purging people from voter rolls, wrongly. North Florida has a history of voter purges that disproportionately have affected black communities.

To affect the outcome of an election illegally, it's not going to happen one vote at a time. That would be some concerted effort to stuff ballot boxes, or worse have some one internally (meaning in the US) or externally (a foreign actor) hack the system. This is a much more dangerous problem in the digital age, and has nothing to do with voter IDs.
 

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Hey, I love @Moxie too ! I met her all the way back when I was a liberal myself ! I am still a classical liberal but these days it is called conservative. Go figure...
And your answer is wrong ! ;)
I know! I know!

He is the second coming of Jesus! I can't see him carrying a cross, or even forgiving anyone, but he is, he is!!!

Edit: No, it is the other way around. Jesus is the first coming of Trump. Donald Jesus Trump! King of the Jews and real estate!
 
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Do you know what I don't get? Why they never gave a Trump prize to Alfred Nobel... He deserved one. He had great ratings on his day.
 
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You have a basic misunderstanding of the voter ID issue. Let me try explaining it again. Many people here do, too, and now they're talking about having people bring passports and all kinds of nonsense to the polling places.

The important time to show proof of citizenship is when you REGISTER to vote. When you show up to vote, you present yourself, and sign your signature, which is comparable to the one on file. That's how it works in New York. Some states have you show an ID. Personally, I don't see how that is necessary. Even in NYC, either they know me, or they certainly have recorded that I have voted. I can't show up again. No one can vote for me.

The historical reasons for not disenfranchising voters (which doesn't mean only black voters, but historically, they were the most disenfranchised,) was that, back in the day, it was harder for poor people to get proper ID. Also, in the South, the rules kept changing to try to keep black people from voting. There were even some literacy tests, and poll taxes and all kinds of finagling going on. The purpose of the Voting Rights Act was to eliminate some of this blatant racism that was designed specifically to keep black people from voting, and to keep white people in power, even in major black districts, particularly in the south.

Certainly, times are different than they were in 1965. However, efforts to suppress the vote still go on, from the right. This includes the spreading of the notion that voter fraud is a problem in this country, which it is not. Trump has made a career of it. I given you many reasons before why it's hard for individuals to vote fraudulently. It's also a federal crime to do so, so what more do you need?

Demanding ID at the polling place still makes it easier to disenfranchise poor people. The homeless, for example, and they do have the right to vote. Voting is a sacred right in a democracy, and it's wrong to attempt to make it hard for people to vote. Plenty of tricks still go on, like purging people from voter rolls, wrongly. North Florida has a history of voter purges that disproportionately have affected black communities.

To affect the outcome of an election illegally, it's not going to happen one vote at a time. That would be some concerted effort to stuff ballot boxes, or worse have some one internally (meaning in the US) or externally (a foreign actor) hack the system. This is a much more dangerous problem in the digital age, and has nothing to do with voter IDs.
Yes, that’s what democrats say. But for an election to have integrity, everyone who votes need to have some proof of who they are. There are even simple abc steps for homeless people to register.

I remember we had this discussion years ago regarding Texas voting ID laws and it appears that actually they were jumping through hoops to make it easy for everyone to participate in the election…
 

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This voter ID issue has to be one of the most non-issues of all time. Just look at the polls...Democrats, Conservatives, Blacks, Latinos...everyone supports it. If you want a bi partisan support in any issue, this is it. If it is a bit of an inconvenience to get an id for some, too bad. This is democracy, it requires effort to keep it running. I can tell you stories about the shit people go through to vote in south east Turkey in winter...and their income is 10 times less than the poorest American but they still put their IDs in their pockets and go vote.
 
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You have a basic misunderstanding of the voter ID issue. Let me try explaining it again. Many people here do, too, and now they're talking about having people bring passports and all kinds of nonsense to the polling places.

The important time to show proof of citizenship is when you REGISTER to vote. When you show up to vote, you present yourself, and sign your signature, which is comparable to the one on file. That's how it works in New York. Some states have you show an ID. Personally, I don't see how that is necessary. Even in NYC, either they know me, or they certainly have recorded that I have voted. I can't show up again. No one can vote for me.

The historical reasons for not disenfranchising voters (which doesn't mean only black voters, but historically, they were the most disenfranchised,) was that, back in the day, it was harder for poor people to get proper ID. Also, in the South, the rules kept changing to try to keep black people from voting. There were even some literacy tests, and poll taxes and all kinds of finagling going on. The purpose of the Voting Rights Act was to eliminate some of this blatant racism that was designed specifically to keep black people from voting, and to keep white people in power, even in major black districts, particularly in the south.

Certainly, times are different than they were in 1965. However, efforts to suppress the vote still go on, from the right. This includes the spreading of the notion that voter fraud is a problem in this country, which it is not. Trump has made a career of it. I given you many reasons before why it's hard for individuals to vote fraudulently. It's also a federal crime to do so, so what more do you need?

Demanding ID at the polling place still makes it easier to disenfranchise poor people. The homeless, for example, and they do have the right to vote. Voting is a sacred right in a democracy, and it's wrong to attempt to make it hard for people to vote. Plenty of tricks still go on, like purging people from voter rolls, wrongly. North Florida has a history of voter purges that disproportionately have affected black communities.

To affect the outcome of an election illegally, it's not going to happen one vote at a time. That would be some concerted effort to stuff ballot boxes, or worse have some one internally (meaning in the US) or externally (a foreign actor) hack the system. This is a much more dangerous problem in the digital age, and has nothing to do with voter IDs.

Thank you for the explanation. A few remarks here then:

Given that, it is clear that non-citizens would have a hard time to vote, as they would have to falsify citizenship when registering. Understood. This means that there is a very little probability that alleged voter fraud would come from illegal aliens. I mean, it could, but it could come from anyone. They are not in a special position to do so. If I would try to game the system, I would try to do that with citizens.

But, you have to admit it is extremely fragile not to demand an ID to actually vote. If I understood correctly what you said, the only thing protecting from fraudlent votes is a visual check on a signature. This is fragile. I am not saying that this proves fraud (it doesn't), but if you leave the loophole there, people will never let it go, some with honest concern, some not. In Brazil, we have an eletronic system which is pretty decent, and people say all sorts of crazy things about it, not only on the internet, but also on public, political discussions. When the actual, open technical hearings take place, these people don't show up, but it does not stop them talking.

Actually, I made half a case against my own point, that is, people will say what they say no matter what. But, as I said, your system is fragile, no doubt about that. It is hard to imagine why someone ill intenend would not try to explore it.

As @Murat B. mentioned above, way less developed places deal with IDs in voting with zero issues. People in some Brazilian regions are completely illiterate, live in extremely harsh and poor conditions, have even to get boats (in the north) or cross miles of desertic regions (in the northeast) to vote, and they do that with their IDs. Before it was harder, people had to have a specific voting ID, now we can vote only with our regular ones.

I get that at some point in the past asking for ID would be a way to keep poor and illiterate people from voting, but... this is croocked people gaming the system. Controling for ID is not ineherently racist or some absurd similar statement, it is mere common sense. What is inherently racist is, if you know a given group has a hard time registering, you do nothing, or even make an effort to keep it that way. This is where the racism is, or was, or was and is still.

In a nutshell, if you leave cracks in the system, those will be exploited, one way or another.
 

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Thank you for the explanation. A few remarks here then:

Given that, it is clear that non-citizens would have a hard time to vote, as they would have to falsify citizenship when registering. Understood. This means that there is a very little probability that alleged voter fraud would come from illegal aliens. I mean, it could, but it could come from anyone. They are not in a special position to do so. If I would try to game the system, I would try to do that with citizens.

But, you have to admit it is extremely fragile not to demand an ID to actually vote. If I understood correctly what you said, the only thing protecting from fraudlent votes is a visual check on a signature. This is fragile. I am not saying that this proves fraud (it doesn't), but if you leave the loophole there, people will never let it go, some with honest concern, some not. In Brazil, we have an eletronic system which is pretty decent, and people say all sorts of crazy things about it, not only on the internet, but also on public, political discussions. When the actual, open technical hearings take place, these people don't show up, but it does not stop them talking.

Actually, I made half a case against my own point, that is, people will say what they say no matter what. But, as I said, your system is fragile, no doubt about that. It is hard to imagine why someone ill intenend would not try to explore it.

As @Murat B. mentioned above, way less developed places deal with IDs in voting with zero issues. People in some Brazilian regions are completely illiterate, live in extremely harsh and poor conditions, have even to get boats (in the north) or cross miles of desertic regions (in the northeast) to vote, and they do that with their IDs. Before it was harder, people had to have a specific voting ID, now we can vote only with our regular ones.

I get that at some point in the past asking for ID would be a way to keep poor and illiterate people from voting, but... this is croocked people gaming the system. Controling for ID is not ineherently racist or some absurd similar statement, it is mere common sense. What is inherently racist is, if you know a given group has a hard time registering, you do nothing, or even make an effort to keep it that way. This is where the racism is, or was, or was and is still.

In a nutshell, if you leave cracks in the system, those will be exploited, one way or another.
I appreciate what you all have said, starting with Kieran. You are the only one to at least address if the question of ID is for squelching voter fraud.

I don't really have the same issues I used to with ID, because times change, and we are more modern, though I will say, as the Republicans move the goalposts, requiring more and more ID, they are, in this country, expensive. A driver's license costs about $75 in NY, an ID for those who don't drive is less, but cumbersome to get. A passport starts at about $165. And just a reminder: in the US, if you don't drive or fly or travel abroad, you are not required to carry ID. If the police stop you, unlike in countries I've lived in in Europe, they cannot cite you for walking around, minding your own, with no ID. Free country, as we like to say. Meaning, if you have no ID, and you're not required to, they are trying to make it hard for you to vote.

But the more salient point is this: What are people worried about happening if we don't require ID at the polls? You say it's "fragile," just to compare my signature, in NY. But how fragile, really? Say someone goes to my polling place, replicates my signature, and steals my vote. That's one vote. Drop in the bucket. And, as I have pointed out, there is already the safeguard that it's a federal crime. Subject to something like $5000 fine and 5 years in prison, and you're a felon for life. It's not a cost-effective way to steal an election, nor is it worth the risk. (And, btw, if I showed up after, and someone had already voted in my name, I have the right to request an affidavit ballot. Those are the ballots that take longer to sort out, after the polls close.)

As I read in @Kieran's link to how homeless people can vote, some states don't require much proof of citizenship upfront, but you show it at the polls. This is a complication, but every state controls their own voting and rules. If it were me, I'd have everyone prove they are eligible to vote when they register. Proof of citizenship (birth certificate, passport, whatever,) and they swear to it, and they're registered. Done. Then, when they show up at their correct polling place, with their name, it should be enough. If you want an ID, per your own state, OK, but it should be easy and quick. Quick is important because, if you slow things down at the polls, the lines get long, and you risk people giving up and not voting. I mentioned before, and I mean this very sincerely: the most important thing is that all eligible voters get to vote, and not get discouraged from it. The polling place is NOT the time to be really checking if people are legal to vote. It's too time-consuming. That should have been done before. Don't put that on poll workers.

I think people who make the voter ID argument don't understand that you don't want the heavy-lifting done at the polls. It needs to be done before.

But again, the most important point, that folks seem to forget, because Trump has convinced half of the voting population in the US, and apparently some of the rest of you, is that VOTER FRAUD IS VERY RARE! And it doesn't tend to affect elections, and certainly not national ones. Fraud has to be perpetrated on a grand scale, as in something like the Russians hacking the system to make even a dent. The one-to-one vote will never get you enough benefit to be worth the risk.

Can you see what I mean?
 

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Yes, that’s what democrats say. But for an election to have integrity, everyone who votes need to have some proof of who they are.
But they prove who they are when they register. They swear to it. You believe what Trump says about the lack of election integrity. Please read what I wrote to Mrzz, above. It's meant for you, too. And please think about it before you just reflexively come after me. You can look it up. Individual voter fraud is rare in the US.


So if you're worried about voter fraud, you should relax. So, no worries about ID, then. Right?
 

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I appreciate what you all have said, starting with Kieran. You are the only one to at least address if the question of ID is for squelching voter fraud.

I don't really have the same issues I used to with ID, because times change, and we are more modern, though I will say, as the Republicans move the goalposts, requiring more and more ID, they are, in this country, expensive. A driver's license costs about $75 in NY, an ID for those who don't drive is less, but cumbersome to get. A passport starts at about $165. And just a reminder: in the US, if you don't drive or fly or travel abroad, you are not required to carry ID. If the police stop you, unlike in countries I've lived in in Europe, they cannot cite you for walking around, minding your own, with no ID. Free country, as we like to say. Meaning, if you have no ID, and you're not required to, they are trying to make it hard for you to vote.

But the more salient point is this: What are people worried about happening if we don't require ID at the polls? You say it's "fragile," just to compare my signature, in NY. But how fragile, really? Say someone goes to my polling place, replicates my signature, and steals my vote. That's one vote. Drop in the bucket. And, as I have pointed out, there is already the safeguard that it's a federal crime. Subject to something like $5000 fine and 5 years in prison, and you're a felon for life. It's not a cost-effective way to steal an election, nor is it worth the risk. (And, btw, if I showed up after, and someone had already voted in my name, I have the right to request an affidavit ballot. Those are the ballots that take longer to sort out, after the polls close.)

As I read in @Kieran's link to how homeless people can vote, some states don't require much proof of citizenship upfront, but you show it at the polls. This is a complication, but every state controls their own voting and rules. If it were me, I'd have everyone prove they are eligible to vote when they register. Proof of citizenship (birth certificate, passport, whatever,) and they swear to it, and they're registered. Done. Then, when they show up at their correct polling place, with their name, it should be enough. If you want an ID, per your own state, OK, but it should be easy and quick. Quick is important because, if you slow things down at the polls, the lines get long, and you risk people giving up and not voting. I mentioned before, and I mean this very sincerely: the most important thing is that all eligible voters get to vote, and not get discouraged from it. The polling place is NOT the time to be really checking if people are legal to vote. It's too time-consuming. That should have been done before. Don't put that on poll workers.

I think people who make the voter ID argument don't understand that you don't want the heavy-lifting done at the polls. It needs to be done before.

But again, the most important point, that folks seem to forget, because Trump has convinced half of the voting population in the US, and apparently some of the rest of you, is that VOTER FRAUD IS VERY RARE! And it doesn't tend to affect elections, and certainly not national ones. Fraud has to be perpetrated on a grand scale, as in something like the Russians hacking the system to make even a dent. The one-to-one vote will never get you enough benefit to be worth the risk.

Can you see what I mean?
If you are trying to convince me the Biden election wasn't decided by voter fraud, you don't need it. I don't think it was. I never did.

But, no, I do not think that checking for ID would compromise people's ability to vote. I lived just that my whole life.
 

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But they prove who they are when they register. They swear to it. You believe what Trump says about the lack of election integrity. Please read what I wrote to Mrzz, above. It's meant for you, too. And please think about it before you just reflexively come after me. You can look it up. Individual voter fraud is rare in the US.


So if you're worried about voter fraud, you should relax. So, no worries about ID, then. Right?
I do not believe in wide spread voter fraud in the US but I do believe it is just a no brainer to provide an ID to vote just like they do in almost every democratically run country . Most countries have figured it out, US, the most powerful nation on earth can figure it out too, no?
Those numbers on the link you provided though...I have no way of proving they are not accurate of course but those are the instances when the fraudster was caught , right? Can there be other instances where the fraud actually worked and no one got caught? I am guessing yes. I mean, it is like, when a drunk driver gets pulled over by the cops , what are the chances that it is the first time this person has driven drunk...? Probably 0%. It is just that he got caught this time.

And what is with that 1 person can sponsor 8 others to vote in Minnesota thing? I honestly have no clue how that works but on the surface it sounds super fishy. I hope it is much more innocent than that.

And I am still waiting for my answer....;)
 

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But they prove who they are when they register. They swear to it. You believe what Trump says about the lack of election integrity. Please read what I wrote to Mrzz, above. It's meant for you, too. And please think about it before you just reflexively come after me. You can look it up. Individual voter fraud is rare in the US.


So if you're worried about voter fraud, you should relax. So, no worries about ID, then. Right?
I’m not thinking of Trump, I’m thinking of how casually racist democrats are about black people not being able to provide ID. I find democrats as a political body to be thoroughly untrustworthy, for many reasons - though I do make an exception for you, so please don’t think I don’t. But I’d have little difficulty believing they’d try to steal an election.

The Texas model regarding ID is so thorough that it’s difficult to say that anyone couldn’t fulfil the requirements. And if they can’t, then they ought not be allowed to vote.

The handwritten signature one is strange, to me. And a little comic, but at my own expense. My handwriting is almost a thing of the past now. I don’t think I still have a signature. It’s dreadful. It took me a day to write six Christmas cards. Seriously, they were a barely legible scrawl, with tippex smeared across every one of them, like snow on Christmas morn.

Personally, I’d have everyone who turns up to vote present some documentary evidence, even a utility bill, before they’re allowed to vote..
 
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