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Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
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Fiero425 Offline
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Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
Since some of the true greats are still playing, some names will flip I'm sure:

1) Navratilova - 18 majors (59 total) holds so many records incl., 9 Wimbledons & 4 USO's
2) Graf - Cal. yr Gr Slams and Olympic Gold- 22 majors due to Seles being stabbed in '93
3) Court - Calender year Grand Slam and has 62 majors in singles, doubles, & MD
4) Evert - 18 majors including 7 French Opens and 6 USO's on 2 surfaces
5) S. Williams - 16 majors so far in singles, Olympic Gold in singles and doubles (3)

6)
7) - - Too open to interpretation at the time they played - -
8) - Henin, V. Williams, Hingis, and Goolagong probably should be listed in here somewhere
9) - Pre-Open era stars like Moody, Lenglen, & Connolly with honorary mentions

10) BJ King - 12 majors and the mother of the WTA making prize money equitable

This is just from memory! If any errors, feel free to let me know and make your choices for the top 10 of all time for the women!

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 29-Jul-2013 05:03 PM by Fiero425.)
29-Jul-2013 04:03 PM
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El Dude Online
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
You're going to catch some flack with that comment "due to Seles being stabbed" as that has been argued here before, ad infinitum.

I think your top 4 are interchangeable and you can make an argument for any of them. I suppose I tend towards Graf because she had a more impressive peak than the others, but Martina would be my second choice, followed closely by Evert and Court.

After Serena, you're right, it gets dicey. I think you've got King, Goolagong, Seles, Hingis, and Henin as your best choices in some order. If you want to include all-time than Moody has to be in there somewhere, probably after Serena. But then there are tons of 5+ Slam winners from pre-Open Era that I'd have no idea what to do with.

I think your best bet is to keep it "Modern Era" - Open Era plus players like Court and King who straddled the two eras.

MODERN ERA ("Open Era Plus") TOP 10 WOMEN
1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Serena
6. King
7. Seles

And then Goolagong, Venus, Henin, and Hingis in some order.
29-Jul-2013 04:27 PM
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jul-2013 04:27 PM)El Dude Wrote:  You're going to catch some flack with that comment "due to Seles being stabbed" as that has been argued here before, ad infinitum.

I think your top 4 are interchangeable and you can make an argument for any of them. I suppose I tend towards Graf because she had a more impressive peak than the others, but Martina would be my second choice, followed closely by Evert and Court.

After Serena, you're right, it gets dicey. I think you've got King, Goolagong, Seles, Hingis, and Henin as your best choices in some order. If you want to include all-time than Moody has to be in there somewhere, probably after Serena. But then there are tons of 5+ Slam winners from pre-Open Era that I'd have no idea what to do with.

I think your best bet is to keep it "Modern Era" - Open Era plus players like Court and King who straddled the two eras.

MODERN ERA ("Open Era Plus") TOP 10 WOMEN
1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Serena
6. King
7. Seles

And then Goolagong, Venus, Henin, and Hingis in some order.

People can argue about comment on the stabbing all they want! The facts are that Seles had Graf's number and she wouldn't be anywhere close to 22 majors if that event hadn't occurred in '93! Seles was far from a fave of mines with all that squealing on court, using that oversized racket, and overall "ugly" game! It was unwatchable at times and she seemed to start it all when it came to that sort of thing! The Williams' have admitted they liked her game and all that noise coming out of her mouth! No No Huh No No Angry - As much as I loved watching Evonne Goolagong play, she only held the #1 ranking for a week or 2! Her biggest highlight beside winning 2 Wimbledons, 1 after becoming a mother: she played in 4 straight USO finals; 2 on grass and 2 on clay! Loved Hingis as well and she obviously played in a weak era, but she did hold the #1 ranking for over 200 weeks! Few will ever do that again!

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 29-Jul-2013 04:46 PM by Fiero425.)
29-Jul-2013 04:33 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jul-2013 04:33 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  The facts are that Seles had Graf's number and she wouldn't be anywhere close to 22 majors if that event hadn't occurred in '93!

This is actually not true, and certainly not the "facts." Look up their head-to-head, both career-wise but also during Seles' two years of dominance. I can't look it up now, but I'm pretty sure Seles didn't have Graf's "number." I'll look it up a little later.
29-Jul-2013 06:51 PM
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britbox Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Williams S.
6. BJK
7. Seles
8. Williams V.
9. Henin
10. Hingis
(This post was last modified: 29-Jul-2013 06:56 PM by britbox.)
29-Jul-2013 06:55 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jul-2013 06:51 PM)El Dude Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 04:33 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  The facts are that Seles had Graf's number and she wouldn't be anywhere close to 22 majors if that event hadn't occurred in '93!

This is actually not true, and certainly not the "facts." Look up their head-to-head, both career-wise but also during Seles' two years of dominance. I can't look it up now, but I'm pretty sure Seles didn't have Graf's "number." I'll look it up a little later.

The facts are in here about the H2H

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/blogs/brit...fs-legacy/
29-Jul-2013 06:59 PM
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jul-2013 06:55 PM)britbox Wrote:  1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Williams S.
6. BJK
7. Seles
8. Williams V.
9. Henin
10. Hingis

Not bad at all! Clap Clap Clap Big Smile Tongue

(29-Jul-2013 06:59 PM)britbox Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 06:51 PM)El Dude Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 04:33 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  The facts are that Seles had Graf's number and she wouldn't be anywhere close to 22 majors if that event hadn't occurred in '93!

This is actually not true, and certainly not the "facts." Look up their head-to-head, both career-wise but also during Seles' two years of dominance. I can't look it up now, but I'm pretty sure Seles didn't have Graf's "number." I'll look it up a little later.

The facts are in here about the H2H

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/blogs/brit...fs-legacy/

So everyone's saying Seles was stabbed for nothing then? Hmmm! No No All I can do is shake my head watching Steffi go about her business as if nothing had happened! No No No No No No What could she do, but it was still uncomfortable to see what transpired?

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 29-Jul-2013 11:43 PM by Fiero425.)
29-Jul-2013 07:05 PM
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El Dude Online
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
No one is saying anything other than the simple fact of the head-to-head, which is that article. The key is this:

Before stabbing: 6-4, Graf
1991-93: 3-2, Graf

Seles was a great player, but did not have "have Graf's number." At best she was close to her equal and very possibly could have taken 1 or 2 Slams from her, maybe even 3. I think she would have take a couple from others. But even then, Graf would have likely ended with 10+ and Monica something like 14-18.

The stabbing didn't keep Seles from beating better from Graf, but it did keep her from battling Serena for #5 all-time.
29-Jul-2013 07:26 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
The fact that Seles was stabbed changed absolutely nothing with respect to tournaments being played, trophies being awarded and checks being cashed that her being seriously injured or absent in any other fashion would change. No one told the players or the fans or the press that they were watching or performing for some second tier result beforehand. So if Sanchez, or Novatna or Graf worked and trained and fought for a RG title, we have no right to put an asterisk on it later.

Lets take another look at Court and King and start shoving asterisks behind results tainted by Maria Bueno's absence due to Mono and her injuries right in the pinnacle of her career. King got lucky, and court got damn lucky. but then King got damn lucky later when Court turns up pregnant twice.


How does a sciatic nerve damage impact Evert and Navratilova? Sure doesn't hurt if it is the only major threat to their dominance for a generation. Austin grabs Open titles and RG titles. Well she didn't that leads to asterisks.

See the stabbing does nothing concrete but interfere with seedings and draws. That is exactly what mononucleosis, pregnancy and bad back pain does or countless others acts of fate we never hear of because future champions are often derailed before they ever get going. We never hear or know.






.
08-Sep-2013 01:45 PM
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(08-Sep-2013 01:45 PM)BTURNER Wrote:  The fact that Seles was stabbed changed absolutely nothing with respect to tournaments being played, trophies being awarded and checks being cashed that her being seriously injured or absent in any other fashion would change. No one told the players or the fans or the press that they were watching or performing for some second tier result beforehand. So if Sanchez, or Novatna or Graf worked and trained and fought for a RG title, we have no right to put an asterisk on it later.

Lets take another look at Court and King and start shoving asterisks behind results tainted by Maria Bueno's absence due to Mono and her injuries right in the pinnacle of her career. King got lucky, and court got damn lucky. but then King got damn lucky later when Court turns up pregnant twice.


How does a sciatic nerve damage impact Evert and Navratilova? Sure doesn't hurt if it is the only major threat to their dominance for a generation. Austin grabs Open titles and RG titles. Well she didn't that leads to asterisks.

See the stabbing does nothing concrete but interfere with seedings and draws. That is exactly what mononucleosis, pregnancy and bad back pain does or countless others acts of fate we never hear of because future champions are often derailed before they ever get going. We never hear or know.

.

Sorry, but just glancing at this post trying to equate a stabbing with MONO makes no sense! Acquiring a disease and some nut coming out of the stands to assault a little girl isn't comparable; and I feel sorry for people who truly believe that! That threw everything out of whack artificially since we know how much Seles dominated on clay at least! I can't tell you how disappointed that makes me to see again and again stated so cavalierly! I never even cared for the game of Seles, but I would have to be insane to think what happened to her didn't affect that era! Gawd, this makes my hand shake! Huh Confused No No

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 08-Sep-2013 02:27 PM by Fiero425.)
08-Sep-2013 02:25 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jul-2013 07:05 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 06:55 PM)britbox Wrote:  1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Williams S.
6. BJK
7. Seles
8. Williams V.
9. Henin
10. Hingis

Not bad at all! Clap Clap Clap Big Smile Tongue

(29-Jul-2013 06:59 PM)britbox Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 06:51 PM)El Dude Wrote:  
(29-Jul-2013 04:33 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  The facts are that Seles had Graf's number and she wouldn't be anywhere close to 22 majors if that event hadn't occurred in '93!

This is actually not true, and certainly not the "facts." Look up their head-to-head, both career-wise but also during Seles' two years of dominance. I can't look it up now, but I'm pretty sure Seles didn't have Graf's "number." I'll look it up a little later.

The facts are in here about the H2H

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/blogs/brit...fs-legacy/

So everyone's saying Seles was stabbed for nothing then? Hmmm! No No All I can do is shake my head watching Steffi go about her business as if nothing had happened! No No No No No No What could she do, but it was still uncomfortable to see what transpired?

What could she do

Nothing. What did we expect her and the rest of the tour to do? Postpone the tour for a few years?

Graf and all the other major winners of the period won their silverware on court. I mean, I assume you count Hingis' majors Fiero?

You can't bottle time and assume Seles would have been playing at the same level every year, been injury free and never had her own off-court issues (i.e. death of her father & coach) and weight issues.

Did McEnroe reproduce his form of 84 indefinitely? Did Wilander reproduce his form of 88 indefinitely? No, they never won a single major again.

Seles probably (highly likely) would have won more majors IF she hadn't been stabbed... but she got just the one and all we can go from is what actually happened, not what might have happened. Otherwise we could rewrite history for pretty much everybody on the planet.

Seles having Graf's number is an urban myth when you look at the H2H before, during and after Seles peak. People keep trotting it out as if saying it over and over again will make it so. She dominated the field, but never dominated Steffi Graf. When Hingis was Number 1, Graf even led the H2H and won the majority of matches.
08-Sep-2013 04:11 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(08-Sep-2013 02:25 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  
(08-Sep-2013 01:45 PM)BTURNER Wrote:  The fact that Seles was stabbed changed absolutely nothing with respect to tournaments being played, trophies being awarded and checks being cashed that her being seriously injured or absent in any other fashion would change. No one told the players or the fans or the press that they were watching or performing for some second tier result beforehand. So if Sanchez, or Novatna or Graf worked and trained and fought for a RG title, we have no right to put an asterisk on it later.

Lets take another look at Court and King and start shoving asterisks behind results tainted by Maria Bueno's absence due to Mono and her injuries right in the pinnacle of her career. King got lucky, and court got damn lucky. but then King got damn lucky later when Court turns up pregnant twice.


How does a sciatic nerve damage impact Evert and Navratilova? Sure doesn't hurt if it is the only major threat to their dominance for a generation. Austin grabs Open titles and RG titles. Well she didn't that leads to asterisks.

See the stabbing does nothing concrete but interfere with seedings and draws. That is exactly what mononucleosis, pregnancy and bad back pain does or countless others acts of fate we never hear of because future champions are often derailed before they ever get going. We never hear or know.

.

Sorry, but just glancing at this post trying to equate a stabbing with MONO makes no sense! Acquiring a disease and some nut coming out of the stands to assault a little girl isn't comparable; and I feel sorry for people who truly believe that! That threw everything out of whack artificially since we know how much Seles dominated on clay at least! I can't tell you how disappointed that makes me to see again and again stated so cavalierly! I never even cared for the game of Seles, but I would have to be insane to think what happened to her didn't affect that era! Gawd, this makes my hand shake! Huh Confused No No

Of course it did. Tragedy and misfortune impact sport all the time. Whther you define the misfortune as 'artificial', makes utterly no difference to the tour, beyond being an arbitrary division in your mind. The differences you are underlining between being the victim of crime, and being the victim of a chronic health condition or injury are real to Seles, but not the tournaments or the way they were run and held. A disease that steals the number 1 player in the world for a year or more, has the exact same impact on the era that an injury or stabbing would have on an era by removing a champion in their prime for recovery and comeback. Obviously Court gained majors at Bueno's expense Do you think Little Mo's accident did not open up doors and opportunity in her era, or Austin's injury in her's? What exactly was it about the 'how' that gives Seles the right to claim titles she did nothing to earn or compromises the wins of those who did the work to win them? We did not tell them that they might as well not bother because all results were suspect pending Seles return to form.
(This post was last modified: 08-Sep-2013 05:18 PM by BTURNER.)
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(08-Sep-2013 05:12 PM)BTURNER Wrote:  
(08-Sep-2013 02:25 PM)Fiero425 Wrote:  
(08-Sep-2013 01:45 PM)BTURNER Wrote:  The fact that Seles was stabbed changed absolutely nothing with respect to tournaments being played, trophies being awarded and checks being cashed that her being seriously injured or absent in any other fashion would change. No one told the players or the fans or the press that they were watching or performing for some second tier result beforehand. So if Sanchez, or Novatna or Graf worked and trained and fought for a RG title, we have no right to put an asterisk on it later.

Lets take another look at Court and King and start shoving asterisks behind results tainted by Maria Bueno's absence due to Mono and her injuries right in the pinnacle of her career. King got lucky, and court got damn lucky. but then King got damn lucky later when Court turns up pregnant twice.


How does a sciatic nerve damage impact Evert and Navratilova? Sure doesn't hurt if it is the only major threat to their dominance for a generation. Austin grabs Open titles and RG titles. Well she didn't that leads to asterisks.

See the stabbing does nothing concrete but interfere with seedings and draws. That is exactly what mononucleosis, pregnancy and bad back pain does or countless others acts of fate we never hear of because future champions are often derailed before they ever get going. We never hear or know.

.

Sorry, but just glancing at this post trying to equate a stabbing with MONO makes no sense! Acquiring a disease and some nut coming out of the stands to assault a little girl isn't comparable; and I feel sorry for people who truly believe that! That threw everything out of whack artificially since we know how much Seles dominated on clay at least! I can't tell you how disappointed that makes me to see again and again stated so cavalierly! I never even cared for the game of Seles, but I would have to be insane to think what happened to her didn't affect that era! Gawd, this makes my hand shake! Huh Confused No No

Of course it did. Tragedy and misfortune impact sport all the time. Whther you define the misfortune as 'artificial', makes utterly no difference to the tour, beyond being an arbitrary division in your mind. The differences you are underlining between being the victim of crime, and being the victim of a chronic health condition or injury are real to Seles, but not the tournaments or the way they were run and held. A disease that steals the number 1 player in the world for a year or more, has the exact same impact on the era that an injury or stabbing would have on an era by removing a champion in their prime for recovery and comeback. Obviously Court gained majors at Bueno's expense Do you think Little Mo's accident did not open up doors and opportunity in her era, or Austin's injury in her's? What exactly was it about the 'how' that gives Seles the right to claim titles she did nothing to earn or compromises the wins of those who did the work to win them? We did not tell them that they might as well not bother because all results were suspect pending Seles return to form.

I'm done! No No No No No No No No No No No No

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08-Sep-2013 05:23 PM
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
Anyone have a change of heart concerning the top rankings; GOAT talk? I still have Serena Williams at #5 behind Navratilova, Graf, Court, & Evert! Hingis and Henin in the top 10 and Venus barely in the top 20!

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29-Jun-2014 07:51 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
This is a nice "exercise". My rating is based on last 15-20 years but I have images of past players. I counted players like Navratilova, Seles, Graf. Fiero wont like/rate my list at all Wink
I picked them according to my taste and how tennis evolved in last years, not by title numbers. Example:
Larry Bird was an amazing basketball player but I doubt his style of play in today's athletic style of play. Sports evolves all the time.

1. S Williams
2. Navratilova
3. Seles
4. Graf
5. V Williams
6. Henin
7. Kim
8. King
9. Evert
10. Sharapova before 2010 (yes,me! because of her fighting spirit) Blush

11. Simona from Constantza Wink not yet, maybe in future
(This post was last modified: 29-Jun-2014 11:07 PM by Si Si Simona.)
29-Jun-2014 09:12 PM
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Fiero425 Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jun-2014 09:12 PM)Si Si Simona Wrote:  This is a nice "exercise". My rating is based on last 15-20 years but I have images of past players. I counted players like Navratilova, Seles, Graf. Fiero wont like/rate my list at all Wink

1. S Williams - 17 majors in singles, Olympic Gold in singles and doubles
2. Navratilova - 59 major, 167 singles titles, 177 doubles titles, #1 over 330 weeks, 74 match win str.
3. Seles - stabbed while being #1 and prevented from having a more impressive resume
4. Graf - 22 majors, Golden Grand Slam, #1 over 370 weeks, took advantage of Seles absence
5. V Williams - 7 majors, none off grass since '01, #1 the shortest period since Evonne G.C.
6. Henin - Retired as #1, returned for a while and an overall impressive record on all surfaces
7. Kim - Only mother in recent memory to win a couple majors
8. King - Mother of WTA, WTT, & equal pay for women's tennis - 12 majors in singles, 20 Wimbledons
9. Evert = 18 majors in singles, 125 straight wins on clay, 157 singles titles
10. Sharapova - 5 majors - before 2010 (yes,me! b/c of her fighting spirit) Blush

11. Simona from Constantza Wink not yet, maybe in future

Whatevah! No No Puzzled Confused Angel - Just a few stats off the top of my head! Cool Angel

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 29-Jun-2014 09:53 PM by Fiero425.)
29-Jun-2014 09:51 PM
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britbox Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
One things for sure, that's the first time I've seen Kim Clijsters ranked above Chris Evert in a greatest of all time list.
29-Jun-2014 10:14 PM
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
(29-Jun-2014 10:14 PM)britbox Wrote:  One things for sure, that's the first time I've seen Kim Clijsters ranked above Chris Evert in a greatest of all time list.

Half of the list is throwing me! No No :snigger Clap Lolz Lay Down Laughing The restraint is killing me!

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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
My top 10 for Women All Time

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Serena Williams
6. Billie Jean King
7. Monica Seles
8. Venus Williams
9. Justine Henin
10.Martina Hingis.
29-Jun-2014 10:44 PM
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britbox Offline
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RE: Revised Top 10 For Women All Time
^ Great minds think alike Smile
29-Jun-2014 10:47 PM
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fashionista (06-29-2014)
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