BOARD TALK
The fastest growing tennis discussion forum on the planet.


Post Reply 
Novak's Career Masters Slam
Author Message
Kieran Offline
Running around the backhand...
*********

Posts: 11,433
Likes Given: 6,969
Likes Received: 4,546 in 2,998 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
Novak's Career Masters Slam
If he wins Cinci this year, Novak will have won all the current Masters Series titles. It'd be quite a feat. If he does it, how would you rate it? As a statistical curio, or an indicator of greatness?
24-Jul-2013 12:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
1972Murat Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 8,513
Likes Given: 2,152
Likes Received: 3,161 in 1,854 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
It shows greatness on all surfaces. Add his Wimby win to the equation, since there is no 1000s on grass , and you get an amazing player. And since no one has done it before, I 'd say if he gets it done, it would be more than just statistics.

24-Jul-2013 01:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like 1972Murat's post:
johnsteinbeck (07-25-2013), Kieran (07-24-2013), tented (07-24-2013)
El Dude Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,672
Likes Given: 619
Likes Received: 2,349 in 1,263 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
I don't think its quite as impressive as the career Grand Slam, which I'm sure Novak would much rather have. The four Grand Slams are all pretty different - even AO and the USO are relatively different - whereas there's some degree homogeneity among some of the Masters tournaments.
(This post was last modified: 24-Jul-2013 01:54 PM by El Dude.)
24-Jul-2013 01:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes El Dude's post:
Kieran (07-25-2013)
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 15,768
Likes Given: 2,925
Likes Received: 3,611 in 2,603 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
It'd be a pretty damn good achievement alright. Let's see what happens. Would love if Fed dialed in his 2012 performance there and woke up from his year long slumber. He was awesome there last year.
24-Jul-2013 02:44 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Front242's post:
Kieran (07-25-2013)
DarthFed Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 7,331
Likes Given: 830
Likes Received: 1,947 in 1,281 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 01:53 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I don't think its quite as impressive as the career Grand Slam, which I'm sure Novak would much rather have. The four Grand Slams are all pretty different - even AO and the USO are relatively different - whereas there's some degree homogeneity among some of the Masters tournaments.

It's not as important as a career grand slam obviously. However, I disagree about the surfaces not being as different as grand slams. It is the opposite actually, IW and Miami are significantly slower than AO and on the opposite side of the spectrum for hardcourts is Cincy, which is even faster than the USO. Then Monte Carlo plays a whole heck of a lot differently than Madrid, and you also have indoor tournaments to win as well. Given the versatility winning all of the MS events shows and the fact no one has done it before, it would be a major achievement.
24-Jul-2013 04:35 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like DarthFed's post:
Kieran (07-25-2013), shawnbm (07-25-2013)
tented Offline
Potential GOAT
*********

Posts: 11,618
Likes Given: 4,705
Likes Received: 3,392 in 2,108 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 01:17 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  It shows greatness on all surfaces. Add his Wimby win to the equation, since there is no 1000s on grass , and you get an amazing player. And since no one has done it before, I 'd say if he gets it done, it would be more than just statistics.

I agree. That he will have done it in the era of Federer, Rafa, and Murray is even more impressive.
24-Jul-2013 04:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like tented's post:
Fiero425 (07-24-2013), Kieran (07-25-2013), Moxie629 (07-24-2013)
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 15,768
Likes Given: 2,925
Likes Received: 3,611 in 2,603 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 04:35 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 01:53 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I don't think its quite as impressive as the career Grand Slam, which I'm sure Novak would much rather have. The four Grand Slams are all pretty different - even AO and the USO are relatively different - whereas there's some degree homogeneity among some of the Masters tournaments.

It's not as important as a career grand slam obviously. However, I disagree about the surfaces not being as different as grand slams. It is the opposite actually, IW and Miami are significantly slower than AO and on the opposite side of the spectrum for hardcourts is Cincy, which is even faster than the USO. Then Monte Carlo plays a whole heck of a lot differently than Madrid, and you also have indoor tournaments to win as well. Given the versatility winning all of the MS events shows and the fact no one has done it before, it would be a major achievement.

Very well said.
24-Jul-2013 04:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Fiero425 Offline
Grand Slam Champion
*******

Posts: 4,581
Likes Given: 2,883
Likes Received: 781 in 618 posts
Joined: Jul 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 04:38 PM)tented Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 01:17 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  It shows greatness on all surfaces. Add his Wimby win to the equation, since there is no 1000s on grass , and you get an amazing player. And since no one has done it before, I 'd say if he gets it done, it would be more than just statistics.

I agree. That he will have done it in the era of Federer, Rafa, and Murray is even more impressive.

Well I hope he doesn't kill himself trying to win Cinn.! Is it worth injuring or tiring yourself out before the USO? I think not! He has plenty of time to add that tourney to his resume! Majors are a lot more important and he's quite aware of that; thank GAWD!

"Kneel before your master! Fool; You Are No Longer My Equal! I AM More Than Man, More Than LIFE; I AM A GOD!" Skeletor to He-Man in Masters Of The Universe
(This post was last modified: 24-Jul-2013 04:45 PM by Fiero425.)
24-Jul-2013 04:41 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Fiero425's post:
Kieran (07-25-2013)
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 15,768
Likes Given: 2,925
Likes Received: 3,611 in 2,603 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 04:38 PM)tented Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 01:17 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  It shows greatness on all surfaces. Add his Wimby win to the equation, since there is no 1000s on grass , and you get an amazing player. And since no one has done it before, I 'd say if he gets it done, it would be more than just statistics.

I agree. That he will have done it in the era of Federer, Rafa, and Murray is even more impressive.

Sure is. It'd be the cherry on top of a major achievement.
24-Jul-2013 04:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
johnsteinbeck Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 1,010
Likes Given: 338
Likes Received: 307 in 177 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(24-Jul-2013 04:35 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 01:53 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I don't think its quite as impressive as the career Grand Slam, which I'm sure Novak would much rather have. The four Grand Slams are all pretty different - even AO and the USO are relatively different - whereas there's some degree homogeneity among some of the Masters tournaments.

It's not as important as a career grand slam obviously. However, I disagree about the surfaces not being as different as grand slams. It is the opposite actually, IW and Miami are significantly slower than AO and on the opposite side of the spectrum for hardcourts is Cincy, which is even faster than the USO. Then Monte Carlo plays a whole heck of a lot differently than Madrid, and you also have indoor tournaments to win as well. Given the versatility winning all of the MS events shows and the fact no one has done it before, it would be a major achievement.
agree. on a side note, i also think that Novak winning RG is almost a formality, waiting to happen. (because just like Roger was, Novak will be there to step up when Rafa isn't there (and much unlike Roger, Novak even has a shot at beating the man himself when Rafa's not 100%).)

as to the feat itself - for one, i'm surprised that Cincy is the missing one. sure, it's faster than the rest, but nonetheless, you'd think that an unbelievable hc player like Novak had gotten around to winning this by now. i think he's had three finals there already, no?

anyway, once he's done it, it's a big feat, not to be underestimated. it speaks not only to his greatness on all surfaces, but generally his lack of strategic weaknesses. he has gotten this far because unlike others (okay, unlike almost everyone else), he was able to beat Rafa on clay; but also because unlike some, there's no traditional "weak part" of his calendar - he can win the march and october tournaments alike, pre and post USO and so on.
25-Jul-2013 03:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes johnsteinbeck's post:
shawnbm (07-25-2013)
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 15,768
Likes Given: 2,925
Likes Received: 3,611 in 2,603 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
I agree it's strange this one has escaped him up to now but I'm sure if he doesn't win it this year he surely will before he hangs up his racquet.
25-Jul-2013 03:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Didi Offline
Seasoned Pro
****

Posts: 421
Likes Given: 246
Likes Received: 194 in 107 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
No doubt it would be a major achievement within the current generation or let us say since the 2000s as the masters series events in the 90s had a different structure (not mandatory for example), priority, relevance and were simply not the tournaments as we know them today. When I think back I would even dare to say that only Key Biscane, Monte Carlo, Rome and Paris were really prestigious and seen as a major feat. I could be wrong of course as it depends on the field entering etc., it is just the way I remember them back in the 90s.

Back to Djokovic, I would consider it even higher than Nadal's current record of masters shields in total to be honest. While Rafa won seven different masters and made the finals of every tournament at least once and thus proved to be an all court masters player as well, he basically achieved the record by winning MC, Rome and IW a combined 18 times which only proves what we all already know, that he is the greatest clay courter of all time.

But winning every single one of them, from the grinding wars in the brutal heat of the desert and Miami, to the unpredictable european dirtcourts in MC and Rome, the “clard“ in Madrid, to neutral Canada, superfast Cincinnati and finally the Indoors in Shanghai and Paris, would be an incredible achievement when we keep in mind that 8 out of 9 masters are mandatory, thus you are guaranteed to have to go through the elite to win them and all in the era of Federer and Nadal, plus Murray. Would be huge for Djokovics legacy, no doubt.
25-Jul-2013 05:05 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Didi's post:
Front242 (07-25-2013), shawnbm (07-25-2013)
DarthFed Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 7,331
Likes Given: 830
Likes Received: 1,947 in 1,281 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(25-Jul-2013 03:27 AM)johnsteinbeck Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 04:35 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  
(24-Jul-2013 01:53 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I don't think its quite as impressive as the career Grand Slam, which I'm sure Novak would much rather have. The four Grand Slams are all pretty different - even AO and the USO are relatively different - whereas there's some degree homogeneity among some of the Masters tournaments.

It's not as important as a career grand slam obviously. However, I disagree about the surfaces not being as different as grand slams. It is the opposite actually, IW and Miami are significantly slower than AO and on the opposite side of the spectrum for hardcourts is Cincy, which is even faster than the USO. Then Monte Carlo plays a whole heck of a lot differently than Madrid, and you also have indoor tournaments to win as well. Given the versatility winning all of the MS events shows and the fact no one has done it before, it would be a major achievement.
agree. on a side note, i also think that Novak winning RG is almost a formality, waiting to happen. (because just like Roger was, Novak will be there to step up when Rafa isn't there (and much unlike Roger, Novak even has a shot at beating the man himself when Rafa's not 100%).)

as to the feat itself - for one, i'm surprised that Cincy is the missing one. sure, it's faster than the rest, but nonetheless, you'd think that an unbelievable hc player like Novak had gotten around to winning this by now. i think he's had three finals there already, no?

anyway, once he's done it, it's a big feat, not to be underestimated. it speaks not only to his greatness on all surfaces, but generally his lack of strategic weaknesses. he has gotten this far because unlike others (okay, unlike almost everyone else), he was able to beat Rafa on clay; but also because unlike some, there's no traditional "weak part" of his calendar - he can win the march and october tournaments alike, pre and post USO and so on.

Novak has actually made 4 Cincy finals and has run into Fed twice and Murray twice. I do think that one is only a matter of time. This year especially seems like a good time for him to get it as Fed has been completely out of the picture.

I disagree that RG is only a matter of time though. Djokovic will be 27 next year so his window of opportunity is quickly closing as he will soon be on the downside of his career. And Nadal showed this year more than ever that he will be one of if not the favorite on clay for a good 5 years yet. As long as he gets the ball to bounce to ridiculous heights there are only a couple who can trouble him.
25-Jul-2013 06:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes DarthFed's post:
Moxie629 (07-26-2013)
johnsteinbeck Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 1,010
Likes Given: 338
Likes Received: 307 in 177 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
^Novak being one of them. and looking at the past two RG's, if not for Rafa, who would've taken it but Novak? Novak is currently head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to big time play on clay. and about the window quickly closing? come on, he's 26 now. he has a few more very solid shots, and isn't showing as much mileage-related distress as Rafa is. he seems pretty solid, physically.


anyway, if we're being serious: no, of course RG won't be a sure-fire thing for him. things could get in the way. and so far, targetting specific titles (if 2012 is any indication) hasn't seemed to become Novak as much as just generally playing great and going on runs does. me thinking that he will nonetheless definitely make it happen is just a guess - i always thought that his game perfectly suited clay, that he should've had even more success there even earlier, and that RG being the missing piece in his slam collection is somewhat similar in oddity to Agassi winning his first slam on 90ies grass. so that's why i'm optimistic. but of course, Rafa is the big obstacle and even beyond him, other things can happen. but that's just as true for Cincy. sure, the Fed issue isn't really there anymore, but by all means, Andy should do great there. so i'd rank the possibility of Novak winning Cincy just a tad above him winning RG, and think both are rather high.
(This post was last modified: 25-Jul-2013 07:14 AM by johnsteinbeck.)
25-Jul-2013 07:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like johnsteinbeck's post:
Kieran (07-25-2013), Moxie629 (07-26-2013)
coban Offline
Pro
***

Posts: 97
Likes Given: 39
Likes Received: 43 in 23 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
Over time as it becomes less likely - this feat could increase in value. Kind of like the original Grand Slam.
25-Jul-2013 08:57 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
DarthFed Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 7,331
Likes Given: 830
Likes Received: 1,947 in 1,281 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(25-Jul-2013 07:13 AM)johnsteinbeck Wrote:  ^Novak being one of them. and looking at the past two RG's, if not for Rafa, who would've taken it but Novak? Novak is currently head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to big time play on clay. and about the window quickly closing? come on, he's 26 now. he has a few more very solid shots, and isn't showing as much mileage-related distress as Rafa is. he seems pretty solid, physically.


anyway, if we're being serious: no, of course RG won't be a sure-fire thing for him. things could get in the way. and so far, targetting specific titles (if 2012 is any indication) hasn't seemed to become Novak as much as just generally playing great and going on runs does. me thinking that he will nonetheless definitely make it happen is just a guess - i always thought that his game perfectly suited clay, that he should've had even more success there even earlier, and that RG being the missing piece in his slam collection is somewhat similar in oddity to Agassi winning his first slam on 90ies grass. so that's why i'm optimistic. but of course, Rafa is the big obstacle and even beyond him, other things can happen. but that's just as true for Cincy. sure, the Fed issue isn't really there anymore, but by all means, Andy should do great there. so i'd rank the possibility of Novak winning Cincy just a tad above him winning RG, and think both are rather high.

He is 26 now and 2 years from now he will be 28 and it is extremely likely he will have slowed down a bit by then. He has been near the top of the game for 6 years already (compared to Rafa's 8 and Federer's 10) so the mileage is building up. I agree that he has another 2 very good chances left and after that it will likely only become tougher even if Rafa won't be as big of an obstacle at that point. But 2 good chances followed by maybe 2 more half decent chances (at age 29 and 30) are not a lot right?
25-Jul-2013 09:23 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
johnsteinbeck Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 1,010
Likes Given: 338
Likes Received: 307 in 177 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
well, i'd say 4 kinda even chances - as the age factor increases, the Rafa factor decreases, just like you say. it's not a sure thing, of course. but i'd say that's decent, when considering the potential that Novak brings. i'm optimistic (if you can call it that, since i'm no fan Wink ) because just like Roger did before '09, Novak has shown that he's the best clay player not named Rafael Nadal.

of course, the root of the discussion is me calling Novak winning it "a formality". of course, that was hyperbole. it's very much possible that he doesn't. i just think that it's more likely than not, and my gut says he'll do it.
(This post was last modified: 25-Jul-2013 09:46 AM by johnsteinbeck.)
25-Jul-2013 09:46 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,672
Likes Given: 619
Likes Received: 2,349 in 1,263 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
I wouldn't be surprised to see Novak dismantle Rafa's clay dominance next year. Roland Garros is a long way off, but as of right now I'd tentatively favor Novak.Remember that Novak challenged Rafa at Roland Garros like he's never been challenged (at least outside of 2009) - that match could have gone either way. The point being, while Rafa has the 8 titles I don't know if I'd give him the edge there against Novak anymore. Psychologically, yes, but in terms of ability I think Novak's right there with him.
25-Jul-2013 10:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 15,768
Likes Given: 2,925
Likes Received: 3,611 in 2,603 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(25-Jul-2013 10:30 AM)El Dude Wrote:  I wouldn't be surprised to see Novak dismantle Rafa's clay dominance next year. Roland Garros is a long way off, but as of right now I'd tentatively favor Novak.Remember that Novak challenged Rafa at Roland Garros like he's never been challenged (at least outside of 2009) - that match could have gone either way. The point being, while Rafa has the 8 titles I don't know if I'd give him the edge there against Novak anymore. Psychologically, yes, but in terms of ability I think Novak's right there with him.

It's miles away yet as you say but most important factor imo is the weather. Start of the match at this year's final the conditions were very windy. Now I know it's the same on paper as they both have to deal with the same conditions, but the fact of the matter is Novak doesn't handle these conditions well. Both of them were afraid of overhitting so we saw a lot of pusher rallies. As soon as the wind died down though Nadal's topspin was on fire. The weather was especially crap there this year though and hopefully next year will be better. I'd say it's around 50/50 there with no outright advantage to either, just as you'd expect from 9-7 in the 5th really.
25-Jul-2013 10:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
DarthFed Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 7,331
Likes Given: 830
Likes Received: 1,947 in 1,281 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Novak's Career Masters Slam
(25-Jul-2013 09:46 AM)johnsteinbeck Wrote:  well, i'd say 4 kinda even chances - as the age factor increases, the Rafa factor decreases, just like you say. it's not a sure thing, of course. but i'd say that's decent, when considering the potential that Novak brings. i'm optimistic (if you can call it that, since i'm no fan Wink ) because just like Roger did before '09, Novak has shown that he's the best clay player not named Rafael Nadal.

of course, the root of the discussion is me calling Novak winning it "a formality". of course, that was hyperbole. it's very much possible that he doesn't. i just think that it's more likely than not, and my gut says he'll do it.

You make a good point regarding the age factor coming into play as the Rafa factor might decrease. It kind of depends on how Nole ages the next couple years. I'm looking at Federer as an example. In his prime it was always going to be between him and Rafa but his chances were probably something between 20-30% realistically. Now 5 years later if you completely remove Rafa from the tournament his chances would still be much less than 20% at RG IMO. You could remove both Nole and Rafa from RG and I think Fed would struggle to win 1 of 5 RG's. RG especially gets tougher with age...
(This post was last modified: 25-Jul-2013 10:53 AM by DarthFed.)
25-Jul-2013 10:52 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)