BOARD TALK
The fastest growing tennis discussion forum on the planet.


Post Reply 
Most Complete Player
Author Message
Puppet Master Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 684
Likes Given: 195
Likes Received: 238 in 181 posts
Joined: Mar 2015
Most Complete Player
Ok, let's get this out of the way.
We heard that old mug Bolletieri say Djokovic is the most complete player, and after a similar remark that Kyrgios gave in Acapulco, people on other forums have been going crazy about it.

First off Novak, like it or not, is a COUNTER PUNCHER. Textbook counterpuncher. He was a bit more aggressive in his ground game when he was younger, but after the racquet change in 2009 (?) , he solidified himself as one.
He is clearly the best counterpuncher that the sport has ever seen judging by his accomplishments, but he clearly isn't the most complete player.
My arguments:
He has probably the worst net game in the top 10, generally not very good at the net, and has botched a million volleys and 4 million overheads. This only feeds his unwillingness to come in and finish points off.
Next, his forehand. Godawful at times. It's fantastic for his playstyle, but in isolation, it's not the best shot in the world to be fair. Same goes for his serve basically, both first and second. Good for his playstyle, but not fantastic.

Even if we only consider the baseline game, Rafa is a better pure baseliner in that regard and there were perhaps some, even better in the past.

In conclusion, this is of course in no way an attack, there are only 2 guys that I would argue that are more complete:
(You guessed it) Fed and Nadal.

Your opinions?
14-Mar-2017 12:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
the AntiPusher Online
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 6,216
Likes Given: 1,161
Likes Received: 1,488 in 1,140 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
(14-Mar-2017 12:26 PM)Puppet Master Wrote:  Ok, let's get this out of the way.
We heard that old mug Bolletieri say Djokovic is the most complete player, and after a similar remark that Kyrgios gave in Acapulco, people on other forums have been going crazy about it.

First off Novak, like it or not, is a COUNTER PUNCHER. Textbook counterpuncher. He was a bit more aggressive in his ground game when he was younger, but after the racquet change in 2009 (?) , he solidified himself as one.
He is clearly the best counterpuncher that the sport has ever seen judging by his accomplishments, but he clearly isn't the most complete player.
My arguments:
He has probably the worst net game in the top 10, generally not very good at the net, and has botched a million volleys and 4 million overheads. This only feeds his unwillingness to come in and finish points off.
Next, his forehand. Godawful at times. It's fantastic for his playstyle, but in isolation, it's not the best shot in the world to be fair. Same goes for his serve basically, both first and second. Good for his playstyle, but not fantastic.

Even if we only consider the baseline game, Rafa is a better pure baseliner in that regard and there were perhaps some, even better in the past.

In conclusion, this is of course in no way an attack, there are only 2 guys that I would argue that are more complete:
(You guessed it) Fed and Nadal.

Your opinions?

It's Roger..Roger has all the strokes in his arsenal, his game transcends to every surface and he really isn't trouble by one particular type of player..This was an easy one. Thanks PMClap
14-Mar-2017 12:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like the AntiPusher's post:
GameSetAndMath (03-14-2017), Puppet Master (03-14-2017)
sid Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 772
Likes Given: 168
Likes Received: 87 in 74 posts
Joined: Jul 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
Andy Murray @ no 1.

You can not be Kyrgios John McEnroeLay Down Laughing
14-Mar-2017 12:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 4,496
Likes Given: 735
Likes Received: 2,726 in 1,495 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
John Isner.
14-Mar-2017 01:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes El Dude's post:
Puppet Master (03-14-2017)
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 4,496
Likes Given: 735
Likes Received: 2,726 in 1,495 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
OK, seriously, it is Roger. Is there really a question? He has no real weakness in terms of skills. Is he anything less than very good at anything? Rafa has been a merely average to above server for most of his career, except for a year or two where he ramped it up. Also, not sure I agree that Rafa is more complete than Novak.

Anyhow, comparing Roger and Rafa reminds me of the Mountain vs. Oberyn in Game of Thrones. Oberyn was the more skilled duellist, but his mental flaw led to him blowing it tragically and catastrophically. The point being, having the better skills doesn't make you the better competitor. Rafa is the greatest competitor the sport has ever seen, with the possible exception of Pete Sampras (I still feel that peak Pete vs. peak Rafa would be the best cross-era matchup...but that's another topic).
(This post was last modified: 14-Mar-2017 01:22 PM by El Dude.)
14-Mar-2017 01:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Haelfix Offline
Seasoned Pro
****

Posts: 271
Likes Given: 5
Likes Received: 202 in 109 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
depends a little how u define things. Someone like Tommy Haas is pretty complete across the board, ditto for Marat Safin. Their level is maybe less high, but they are fundamentally sound in multiple different ways.

Of course Novak, Federer, Agassi, Nadal and Sampras are all really balanced, with not many glaring weaknesses (maybe one each)

Kyrgios, Dimitrov etc etc.
(This post was last modified: 14-Mar-2017 01:29 PM by Haelfix.)
14-Mar-2017 01:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Haelfix Offline
Seasoned Pro
****

Posts: 271
Likes Given: 5
Likes Received: 202 in 109 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
Federer and Novak are sorta the obvious picks, but then if you look carefully Feds backhand return of second serve is pretty terrible. Bad even for a top 50 player. PArt of Novaks netgame and his overheads are historically poor as well.
14-Mar-2017 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Haelfix's post:
Fiero425 (03-14-2017)
mrzz Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 1,163
Likes Given: 107
Likes Received: 710 in 398 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
Before we spend pages debating, I suggest a working definition of "complete". Someone who has all the fundamentals as at least "good level". Fundamentals IMO would be:

Forehand
backhand
serve
return of serve
volley (including overhead)
running forehand (attack & defense)
running bachand (attack & defense)

In that sense, even taking into account Haelfix´s comment above, I would choose Federer, but it is a very close race among the big three. Funny because if you look at the rest of the field, you will quickly spot the weaknesses. Maybe that´s why they are the big three.
14-Mar-2017 01:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
the AntiPusher Online
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 6,216
Likes Given: 1,161
Likes Received: 1,488 in 1,140 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
Heck ..he way DYJr is playing today..I would like to add his name..he is about to bagel your beloved Pouille..WowClap
14-Mar-2017 02:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
GameSetAndMath Offline
Potential GOAT
*********

Posts: 12,947
Likes Given: 2,419
Likes Received: 3,364 in 2,371 posts
Joined: Jul 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
(14-Mar-2017 01:41 PM)mrzz Wrote:  Before we spend pages debating, I suggest a working definition of "complete". Someone who has all the fundamentals as at least "good level". Fundamentals IMO would be:

Forehand
backhand
serve
return of serve
volley (including overhead)
running forehand (attack & defense)
running bachand (attack & defense)

In that sense, even taking into account Haelfix´s comment above, I would choose Federer, but it is a very close race among the big three. Funny because if you look at the rest of the field, you will quickly spot the weaknesses. Maybe that´s why they are the big three.

Missing overhead which is definitely fundamental. How about lob, SABR, tweener? Smile

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
14-Mar-2017 03:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 4,496
Likes Given: 735
Likes Received: 2,726 in 1,495 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
He included overhead with volley. What about dropshot?
14-Mar-2017 04:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
mrzz Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 1,163
Likes Given: 107
Likes Received: 710 in 398 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
(14-Mar-2017 03:29 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  How about lob, SABR, tweener? Smile

Lob? No way, Murray is to good at it. I want to be unfair to him.

In seriousness, I would get down to basics. Too many little categories and we will never get anywhere.
14-Mar-2017 05:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
isabelle Offline
Major Winner
******

Posts: 2,199
Likes Given: 34
Likes Received: 470 in 351 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
Murray and Safin, maybe Nalby when he was in (only when he was in...)
15-Mar-2017 04:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Front242 Offline
Dyslexia For Cure Found
*********

Posts: 16,706
Likes Given: 3,090
Likes Received: 3,758 in 2,713 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Most Complete Player
(15-Mar-2017 04:35 AM)isabelle Wrote:  Murray and Safin, maybe Nalby when he was in (only when he was in...)

As much as I liked Nalbandian, his serve was crap. Tons of double faults and no power. Murray's second serve is also very poor. It's a bit better lately but still poor. Both obvious weaknesses.
15-Mar-2017 12:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)