BOARD TALK
The fastest growing tennis discussion forum on the planet.


Post Reply 
Do we have a Big 4 now?
Author Message
Kieran Offline
Running around the backhand...
*********

Posts: 11,428
Likes Given: 6,967
Likes Received: 4,546 in 2,998 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
Do we have a Big 4 now?
Or a 3 + 1?

I'd say Muzza has become the best player on the planet at the moment. Holds 2 slams and looks like he's gaining, whereas Fedal are waning and Novak isn't 2011 anymore. He's brittle at times and could be overtaken this year.

But to his credit, he's a great champ too.

So no more of this 3+1 nonsense, right? Tongue
07-Jul-2013 11:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
kskate2 Offline
Administrator
******

Posts: 15,281
Likes Given: 1,897
Likes Received: 1,843 in 1,303 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
yep. Andy has beat the #1 or #2 player for both his slam wins. It's time to coronate him to the big 4.
07-Jul-2013 11:49 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
1972Murat Offline
Multiple Slam Winner
********

Posts: 8,513
Likes Given: 2,152
Likes Received: 3,161 in 1,854 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
I still think it is a big 3. Roger has fallen a bit behind these days...

07-Jul-2013 11:51 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,667
Likes Given: 618
Likes Received: 2,346 in 1,261 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
Big 3. I don't think Roger's in the same category anymore. I also disagree that Andy is better than Novak. Novak played a really bad match. If Andy beats Novak (and Rafa) at the US Open, maybe we can crown Andy the best in the game. Remember also that Rafa is the only player who utterly dominates even elite players.
07-Jul-2013 11:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
huntingyou Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 694
Likes Given: 75
Likes Received: 149 in 84 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
Kieran coming around?

Murray its a GREAT player and the slams will come
07-Jul-2013 11:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
tennisville Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 665
Likes Given: 57
Likes Received: 104 in 80 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
Kieran have you stopped drinking these days Puzzled

Whats happenned to you Tongue
07-Jul-2013 11:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes tennisville's post:
Kieran (07-07-2013)
ricardo Offline
Banned
*

Posts: 633
Likes Given: 3
Likes Received: 72 in 50 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
well Andy has never been ranked 1, while Fed, Nadal and Djoker all have. They are all proven all time greats, not Andy.... but i'd say he is in the big 4 club. The guy is too talented not to be, just need a bit more in the head he'll get there.

Should it be attributed to the Czech great Ivan Lendl, who seemingly turned around Andy's career?
07-Jul-2013 11:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes ricardo's post:
Kieran (07-07-2013)
huntingyou Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 694
Likes Given: 75
Likes Received: 149 in 84 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
one of the best coach or right place right time kind of deal?
07-Jul-2013 12:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Kieran Offline
Running around the backhand...
*********

Posts: 11,428
Likes Given: 6,967
Likes Received: 4,546 in 2,998 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
It's certain that Murray is gaining. Is he an all-time great? No. I agree with Ricardo. But he plugged Nole today and he looks sure of himself on the big stage. More slams to follow - then true greatness..
07-Jul-2013 12:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
huntingyou Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 694
Likes Given: 75
Likes Received: 149 in 84 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
I can see Murray getting to 5-7 Slams by 2016. A lot depends on both Novak and Rafa as well but the guy for sure has 3 more in him.
07-Jul-2013 12:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,667
Likes Given: 618
Likes Received: 2,346 in 1,261 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
I also don't see Andy as an all-time great...yet. But I think with this win he's distanced himself a bit from the pack of "near greats" like Roddick, Hewitt, Safin and Kafelnikov, that he's between them and the "lesser greats" like Vilas and Courier. To me the question is whether he wins another Slam or two and ends up with Courier and Vilas, or he wins 3+ more and enters the conversation with Becker, Edberg, and Wilander.
07-Jul-2013 12:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
ricardo Offline
Banned
*

Posts: 633
Likes Given: 3
Likes Received: 72 in 50 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 12:01 PM)huntingyou Wrote:  I can see Murray getting to 5-7 Slams by 2016. A lot depends on both Novak and Rafa as well but the guy for sure has 3 more in him.

what's stopping Andy, he still has the weakest mind of them all......
07-Jul-2013 12:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Kieran Offline
Running around the backhand...
*********

Posts: 11,428
Likes Given: 6,967
Likes Received: 4,546 in 2,998 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
He's definitely answered a few questions, and that's necessary before anyone starts claiming he's better than true greats of the past. But he has more to do, and he needs to sustain these levels for a few years before he's there. he may do it.

But also, we've seen Novak settle after his streak of 2011/2012. Since the streak expired naturally at Oz in 2012, he's won a single slam out of the last 6 (Roger 1, Rafa 2 and Andy 2), and all the others have taken him down a peg. Last year at W, he looked like ole Novak of yore. Sometimes that guy isn't gone away. I wasn't overly impressed by him today...
07-Jul-2013 12:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
ricardo Offline
Banned
*

Posts: 633
Likes Given: 3
Likes Received: 72 in 50 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 11:53 AM)El Dude Wrote:  Big 3. I don't think Roger's in the same category anymore. I also disagree that Andy is better than Novak. Novak played a really bad match. If Andy beats Novak (and Rafa) at the US Open, maybe we can crown Andy the best in the game. Remember also that Rafa is the only player who utterly dominates even elite players.

Fed has a slump and he is out, so simple huh? and who said anything about Andy being better than Novak? Djoker is still the top ranked player by far, has 6 majors in his pocket, what exactly are you trying to say?

So tomorrow Delpo or Berdych wins USO and they become big 4, right? i am sure people have that big 4 idea from a certain length of time, and players earned it from years of good performance; and they don't just drop out just because they have a bad patch. Don't be so quick to be a 'bandwagoner'.
07-Jul-2013 12:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
huntingyou Offline
Masters Titleist
*****

Posts: 694
Likes Given: 75
Likes Received: 149 in 84 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 12:11 PM)ricardo Wrote:  
(07-Jul-2013 12:01 PM)huntingyou Wrote:  I can see Murray getting to 5-7 Slams by 2016. A lot depends on both Novak and Rafa as well but the guy for sure has 3 more in him.

what's stopping Andy, he still has the weakest mind of them all......

it all depends. Winning his home Slam should lift whatever monkey he had on his back. In the other hand, Novak has looked mentally vulnerable in his loss to Nadal and now Murray.

(07-Jul-2013 12:10 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I also don't see Andy as an all-time great...yet. But I think with this win he's distanced himself a bit from the pack of "near greats" like Roddick, Hewitt, Safin and Kafelnikov, that he's between them and the "lesser greats" like Vilas and Courier. To me the question is whether he wins another Slam or two and ends up with Courier and Vilas, or he wins 3+ more and enters the conversation with Becker, Edberg, and Wilander.

For me it's not all about slams.

Murray it's twice the plaer Courier, Wilander and even Becker could ever be. It's a matter of place and time and Andy was dealt a very tough place and time.
(This post was last modified: 07-Jul-2013 12:20 PM by huntingyou.)
07-Jul-2013 12:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Mog Offline
Pro
***

Posts: 207
Likes Given: 524
Likes Received: 45 in 32 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 11:51 AM)1972Murat Wrote:  I still think it is a big 3. Roger has fallen a bit behind these days...

Though Roger has fallen a bit, I would still consider Djoko, Nadal, Murray(since Murray has qualified after W win) and Roger as top four ones.
I would like to make a judgement on this until after this year end.
07-Jul-2013 12:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
ricardo Offline
Banned
*

Posts: 633
Likes Given: 3
Likes Received: 72 in 50 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 12:10 PM)El Dude Wrote:  I also don't see Andy as an all-time great...yet. But I think with this win he's distanced himself a bit from the pack of "near greats" like Roddick, Hewitt, Safin and Kafelnikov, that he's between them and the "lesser greats" like Vilas and Courier. To me the question is whether he wins another Slam or two and ends up with Courier and Vilas, or he wins 3+ more and enters the conversation with Becker, Edberg, and Wilander.

Bollock, how is he 'distanced' himself from Hewitt and Safin who also have two majors and have been number 1 while he hasn't? for a guy who is so into stats, you should be able to make smarter observations or at least be a little thoughtful. Even the numbers you love so much don't support such ridiculously silly claims.
07-Jul-2013 12:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Kieran Offline
Running around the backhand...
*********

Posts: 11,428
Likes Given: 6,967
Likes Received: 4,546 in 2,998 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 12:17 PM)huntingyou Wrote:  For me it's not all about slams.

Murray it's twice the plaer Courier, Wilander and even Becker could ever be. It's a matter of place and time and Andy was dealt a very tough place and time.

That's just nonsense. You're falling for the hype. Let him prove himself a lot more on the big stage before denigrating all-timers...
07-Jul-2013 12:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
calitennis127 Offline
Banned
*

Posts: 1,801
Likes Given: 25
Likes Received: 234 in 172 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 11:47 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Or a 3 + 1?

I'd say Muzza has become the best player on the planet at the moment. Holds 2 slams and looks like he's gaining, whereas Fedal are waning and Novak isn't 2011 anymore. He's brittle at times and could be overtaken this year.

But to his credit, he's a great champ too.

So no more of this 3+1 nonsense, right? Tongue



Murray is firmly entrenched in the Top 4 now, being a 2-time Slam winner. However, I still see him as a level below the other 3 in terms of achievement. In terms of playing level, he is not capable of reaching the same heights as Djokovic or Federer, nor Nadal on clay (though Murray is clearly more talented than Nadal off of clay).

From here on out, I don't see Djokovic losing to Murray very often. The 2012 US Open win and especially today's Wimbledon victory were Murray's hard-won moments. But Djokovic is the more talented player and I really expect him to put some whippings on Murray in subsequent Slam encounters.
07-Jul-2013 12:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Dude Online
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,667
Likes Given: 618
Likes Received: 2,346 in 1,261 posts
Joined: Apr 2013
RE: Do we have a Big 4 now?
(07-Jul-2013 12:17 PM)ricardo Wrote:  
(07-Jul-2013 11:53 AM)El Dude Wrote:  Big 3. I don't think Roger's in the same category anymore. I also disagree that Andy is better than Novak. Novak played a really bad match. If Andy beats Novak (and Rafa) at the US Open, maybe we can crown Andy the best in the game. Remember also that Rafa is the only player who utterly dominates even elite players.

Fed has a slump and he is out, so simple huh? and who said anything about Andy being better than Novak? Djoker is still the top ranked player by far, has 6 majors in his pocket, what exactly are you trying to say?

So tomorrow Delpo or Berdych wins USO and they become big 4, right? i am sure people have that big 4 idea from a certain length of time, and players earned it from years of good performance; and they don't just drop out just because they have a bad patch. Don't be so quick to be a 'bandwagoner'.

Now who is over-reacting? Tongue

When 31-32 year olds have "bad patches" it often means they're nearing the end. Roger's "bad patch" goes back almost a year; remember that he hasn't won a big tournament since Cincinnati Masters last August - that's almost 11 months. If that's a "bad patch" its the worst in ten years.

Don't forget also that he's dropped out of the top 4 for the first time in ten years. Again, it isn't like we're talking about a 27 or 28 year old, but someone who will be 32 in about a month.

I'm not saying that Roger doesn't have some good tennis left, and I even think he has an outside shot at one more Slam, but that overall he's more in the second tier group now than the first tier. Even if he's still capable of beating anyone, his overall level of play is more akin to Berdych or Tsonga than it is Djokovic or Murray.

By the way, Kieran said Andy is the "best player on the planet at the moment." That's what I was disagreeing with. I'm not convinced that he's still not the third best.
07-Jul-2013 12:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)