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Never cease to amaze me
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special700 Offline
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Never cease to amaze me
When Graf had her 22 majors she was labeled as GOAT plain and simple. Margaret Court's name was never mentioned in the same sentence as Graf not even once. When Graf's picture has been shown with Martina and Chrissy's it was always placed first as it should and you never saw Court's picture in the line up. Now low and behold when those same pictures are shown in reference with Serena Williams, Court's picture automatically pops up first on the line up and now she (Court) is being considered the player of all time and Williams is suppose to out do her to be considered GOAT. WTF is that all about? Why wasn't Court mentioned in the same vain when Graf had her 22 majors? Why now is Court being mentioned because Serena is in the picture? Why is it that now the the black girl has exceeded Graf she now has to exceed court who was never mentioned in the same sentence as Graf......One has to wonder.
29-Jan-2017 09:52 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
I don't think anybody in the right mind thinks Court is better than Serena even if Serena had stopped at 19 or so. About half of Court's GS trophies were won at AO. In those years, AO was held during Chrsitmas time and many top players routinely skipped AO as it was considered a significant tourney. So, all those AO trophies which MC has are almost like a Premiere event and not like a GS.

While, they may show the picture for the sake of completeness, I had never seen anyone seriously argue that MC > SW.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
29-Jan-2017 09:57 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(29-Jan-2017 09:52 AM)special700 Wrote:  When Graf had her 22 majors she was labeled as GOAT plain and simple. Margaret Court's name was never mentioned in the same sentence as Graf not even once. When Graf's picture has been shown with Martina and Chrissy's it was always placed first as it should and you never saw Court's picture in the line up. Now low and behold when those same pictures are shown in reference with Serena Williams, Court's picture automatically pops up first on the line up and now she (Court) is being considered the player of all time and Williams is suppose to out do her to be considered GOAT. WTF is that all about? Why wasn't Court mentioned in the same vain when Graf had her 22 majors? Why now is Court being mentioned because Serena is in the picture? Why is it that now the the black girl has exceeded Graf she now has to exceed court who was never mentioned in the same sentence as Graf......One has to wonder.

I haven't heard anyone say that MC is great than SW, do you have a link for this? And I certainly never thought Graf was the greatest of all women's players, and not everybody did. As for Serena, she's definitely the greatest of this era, which includes Venus, Henin, Masha, Safina, and Jankovic, etc. Nobody can take that away from her.

Oh, and there's really no need to bring Serena's colour into it... No No

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29-Jan-2017 12:32 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
Never ceases to amaze me how certain posters here always bring racism that doesn't exist in so many discussions about the Williams sisters. Btw, Navratilova is still the GOAT imo.
29-Jan-2017 01:16 PM
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Kieran (01-29-2017)
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(29-Jan-2017 01:16 PM)Front242 Wrote:  Never ceases to amaze me how certain posters here always bring racism that doesn't exist in so many discussions about the Williams sisters. Btw, Navratilova is still the GOAT imo.

When people argue defending the WS, the race card usually gets played upfront to silence any opposition. Generally it's baseless, and demeans genuine cases of racism...

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29-Jan-2017 01:33 PM
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special700 Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(29-Jan-2017 01:33 PM)Kieran Wrote:  
(29-Jan-2017 01:16 PM)Front242 Wrote:  Never ceases to amaze me how certain posters here always bring racism that doesn't exist in so many discussions about the Williams sisters. Btw, Navratilova is still the GOAT imo.

When people argue defending the WS, the race card usually gets played upfront to silence any opposition. Generally it's baseless, and demeans genuine cases of racism...

Too bad if you all do not understand what I am alluding to in my post. MC name never came up until Serena started winning all of those majors. MC name was never mentioned when Graf won all of her majors. As Serena said when that fact was mentioned to her "always bring someone else up" and most of us know exactly what she's referencing.
29-Jan-2017 02:53 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
Again, it's only you along with a select few here that think that and it has nothing to do with the colour of Serena's skin. Rather it has to do with simple maths, 24 > 23. Now I don't personally think Margaret Court is better than either Serena or Graf so her 24 slams imo hold less weight, however, stats nerds will naturally go for the higher number as it IS the current record whether or not you like it. I think Navratilova beats them all and is the best female player I watched.
(This post was last modified: 29-Jan-2017 03:34 PM by Front242.)
29-Jan-2017 03:34 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
IMO, Serena is the GOATESS of the open era. However, I still strongly feel that Helen Wills Moody is the Goatess of all time. Please see the Goatess thread started by Britbox for convincing arguments about this.

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29-Jan-2017 03:53 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
You converted me to HWM with your research, buddy. I think she's seriously neglected in discussions of greatness, let's even leave aside the partisan discussions of the mythical goat...

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29-Jan-2017 05:11 PM
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El Dude Online
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?
31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

Saying racism exists... but ... secures racism for future generations.

Non- whites are expected to be twice as good as whites for half the credit. Race neutral meritocracy is the grand assumption that goes virtually unchallenged.

Serena's wins are often discussed as though Serena lost. Why?
03-Feb-2017 12:22 PM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(03-Feb-2017 12:22 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

Saying racism exists... but ... secures racism for future generations.

Non- whites are expected to be twice as good as whites for half the credit. Race neutral meritocracy is the grand assumption that goes virtually unchallenged.

Serena's wins are often discussed as though Serena lost. Why?

It's really the sport..tennis is still considered like Golf, an elitist's sport. This sport hasn't been dominated by non whites unlike football (NFL) , NBA and baseball.. Serena's run wasn't like Federer's or Tiger's dominated golf. Although Serena had winning streaks, it was her breaks away from the game that put in doubt how great she really is. However, unlike Tiger..Serena's longevity is really will be her defining imprint on the game of tennis.
03-Feb-2017 07:15 PM
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freedomsmom Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(03-Feb-2017 07:15 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 12:22 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

Saying racism exists... but ... secures racism for future generations.

Non- whites are expected to be twice as good as whites for half the credit. Race neutral meritocracy is the grand assumption that goes virtually unchallenged.

Serena's wins are often discussed as though Serena lost. Why?

It's really the sport..tennis is still considered like Golf, an elitist's sport. This sport hasn't been dominated by non whites unlike football (NFL) , NBA and baseball.. Serena's run wasn't like Federer's or Tiger's dominated golf. Although Serena had winning streaks, it was her breaks away from the game that put in doubt how great she really is. However, unlike Tiger..Serena's longevity is really will be her defining imprint on the game of tennis.
I guess you believe white only sports had nothing to do with generations of whites only law; policy and practice. (socially acceptable racism)
Serena's breaks from the game have had zero impact on her very accomplished career.
03-Feb-2017 10:14 PM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(03-Feb-2017 10:14 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 07:15 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 12:22 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  Saying racism exists... but ... secures racism for future generations.

Non- whites are expected to be twice as good as whites for half the credit. Race neutral meritocracy is the grand assumption that goes virtually unchallenged.

Serena's wins are often discussed as though Serena lost. Why?

It's really the sport..tennis is still considered like Golf, an elitist's sport. This sport hasn't been dominated by non whites unlike football (NFL) , NBA and baseball.. Serena's run wasn't like Federer's or Tiger's dominated golf. Although Serena had winning streaks, it was her breaks away from the game that put in doubt how great she really is. However, unlike Tiger..Serena's longevity is really will be her defining imprint on the game of tennis.
I guess you believe white only sports had nothing to do with generations of whites only law; policy and practice. (socially acceptable racism)
Serena's breaks from the game have had zero impact on her very accomplished career.

I don't think you are completely comprehending what I posted....it's just an opinion..where there's been questions about her being durable..However i don't know what's in the mind of a racially bias individuals against Serena's or Venus 's accomplishments..
03-Feb-2017 10:53 PM
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

Racism still exists of course. But, the level and degree are considerably less compared to what it was. Some have the feeling that Serena and Venus are trailblazers who broke through the racist barriers. That is just not true. Even in the game of tennis, there were multiple black players who have made their mark well before Serena and Venus. This is true even in Women's tennis. Serena and Venus were standing on the shoulders of other true trailblazers who laid the path.

I am not trying to take anything away from Serena and Venus. But, just imparting some historic reality to folks.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
03-Feb-2017 11:52 PM
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Kieran (02-04-2017)
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

More or less, this. Good post, Dude. Why play that victim card, just based upon assumptions? It's a form of reverse prejudice in itself...

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04-Feb-2017 04:37 PM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(04-Feb-2017 04:37 PM)Kieran Wrote:  
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

More or less, this. Good post, Dude. Why play that victim card, just based upon assumptions? It's a form of reverse prejudice in itself...

I don't get why play the victim card..the sisters haven't said a thing..they have been exceptional role models in response the numerous incidents that have unfortunately been associated with them. Kieran, reverse racism thinking is not necessary...
04-Feb-2017 06:04 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(04-Feb-2017 06:04 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  
(04-Feb-2017 04:37 PM)Kieran Wrote:  
(31-Jan-2017 02:46 PM)El Dude Wrote:  Racism exists. Undoubtedly the Williams sisters have experienced it. But it is jumping to conclusions to assume it plays a factor in determinations of the she-GOAT. It may for some, but why assume?

More or less, this. Good post, Dude. Why play that victim card, just based upon assumptions? It's a form of reverse prejudice in itself...

I don't get why play the victim card..the sisters haven't said a thing..they have been exceptional role models in response the numerous incidents that have unfortunately been associated with them. Kieran, reverse racism thinking is not necessary...

I'm not accusing the WS of reverse racism, brother...

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04-Feb-2017 06:38 PM
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freedomsmom Offline
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(03-Feb-2017 10:53 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 10:14 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 07:15 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  It's really the sport..tennis is still considered like Golf, an elitist's sport. This sport hasn't been dominated by non whites unlike football (NFL) , NBA and baseball.. Serena's run wasn't like Federer's or Tiger's dominated golf. Although Serena had winning streaks, it was her breaks away from the game that put in doubt how great she really is. However, unlike Tiger..Serena's longevity is really will be her defining imprint on the game of tennis.
I guess you believe white only sports had nothing to do with generations of whites only law; policy and practice. (socially acceptable racism)
Serena's breaks from the game have had zero impact on her very accomplished career.

I don't think you are completely comprehending what I posted....it's just an opinion..where there's been questions about her being durable..However i don't know what's in the mind of a racially bias individuals against Serena's or Venus 's accomplishments..
I completely understand what you are saying. Ironically, you don't recognize the talk about Serena questionable durability does not stand up to the fact Serena is three times more accomplished than any former or current peer. LOL.
It's precisely why discussing Serena's wins is viewed by some as a opportunity to spew scorn and derision. Twice as good for half the credit. A black code that goes all the way back to the founding of openly racist socially acceptable give me white liberty or death, America.
04-Feb-2017 07:27 PM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: Never cease to amaze me
(04-Feb-2017 07:27 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 10:53 PM)the AntiPusher Wrote:  
(03-Feb-2017 10:14 PM)freedomsmom Wrote:  I guess you believe white only sports had nothing to do with generations of whites only law; policy and practice. (socially acceptable racism)
Serena's breaks from the game have had zero impact on her very accomplished career.

I don't think you are completely comprehending what I posted....it's just an opinion..where there's been questions about her being durable..However i don't know what's in the mind of a racially bias individuals against Serena's or Venus 's accomplishments..
I completely understand what you are saying. Ironically, you don't recognize the talk about Serena questionable durability does not stand up to the fact Serena is three times more accomplished than any former or current peer. LOL.
It's precisely why discussing Serena's wins is viewed by some as a opportunity to spew scorn and derision. Twice as good for half the credit. A black code that goes all the way back to the founding of openly racist socially acceptable give me white liberty or death, America.

again..you really aren't comprehending what I posted. My post isn't trying to justify a bias towards Serena but what is being used to lessen her accomplishments.BTW,everyone knows I am proSerena so if you looking to ignite a anti Williams sisters argument, I am not a very good candidate for that rubbish.
04-Feb-2017 08:29 PM
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