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General Doping/PEDs Discussion
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JesuslookslikeBorg Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
that so called magic egg that djokovic used a while back, he never hid the fact that he used it for a time, but the strange thing I didn't quite get was why no other top players used a magic egg as well.

it was legal, it seemed to be part of djokovic's improvement..but it was just him using it ??.

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13-Sep-2014 09:17 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(13-Sep-2014 09:17 PM)JesuslookslikeBorg Wrote:  that so called magic egg that djokovic used a while back, he never hid the fact that he used it for a time, but the strange thing I didn't quite get was why no other top players used a magic egg as well.

it was legal, it seemed to be part of djokovic's improvement..but it was just him using it ??.

We had discussions about it an year ago. It is very expensive unit. I think costs about
$250,000 or so. Novak had a rich friend who owned it and was living around NY. He stayed
with that friend and used it after matches to recover.

The expense was one issue. The other problem is that it is a huge thing (obviously, as
you sit in it) and therefore players cannot carry it with them. Given that players play
all over the world, the only way to use them is to have rich friends who live nearby
the tournament sites and who possess the unit.

These are the reasons why it did not take off despite actually being very useful it
what it is trying to accomplish. Basically, it is financially expensive and logistically
cumbersome.

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13-Sep-2014 10:02 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
^ I know that egg is legal, and no knock on Djokovic, but here are my problems with it: if it enriches blood oxygen, then why is it different from blood-doping? And secondly, it's an unfair advantage to wealthy players, because it's so expensive. To be clear, it has not been banned, but it doesn't seem fair. And I thought Djokovic was trying to distance himself from the notion that he was still using it.
(This post was last modified: 13-Sep-2014 10:11 PM by Moxie629.)
13-Sep-2014 10:10 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Wealthy players have advantages by being able to own private jets, hire teams of physios, dieticians, training partners, stay in 5* hotels, build their own scale model Wimbledon centre court out their back garden, if they want. These are the fruits of success. I think if the egg cost only $250,000, I'm surprised that Novak was renting or borrowing it...

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14-Sep-2014 03:12 AM
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1972Murat Online
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Does the egg really have a tangible benefit? Is it a proven fact? Because new studies pop up every day about all sorts of things. Like the couple of studies I have read in the last 4-5 months that claim if you do not have celiac disease, a gluten free diet has zero benefits and there is no such things as gluten sensitivity. You either have celiac disease or you are fine.

14-Sep-2014 09:40 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
I remember a few years ago, soya was being touted as the healthy alternative to milk. Then I read that soya gives you cancer. Then I read it doesn't. Fads rise and then collapse. I've read many theories, but in practice, I don't take dairy products anyway cos they affect my sinuses... Tongue

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14-Sep-2014 09:52 AM
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Billie Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
The way we eat and what we eat does effect our overall well being, I thought that would be very understandable to all people. But maybe not, maybe there are people who eat whatever they want and how much they want and think that is OK. I certainly know which foods don't sit well with me so I avoid them. Anyway if you have somebody in your family with stomach problems like I have in mine, you will realize that what they eat or avoid eating helps them tremendously. Wink

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14-Sep-2014 10:03 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(14-Sep-2014 09:40 AM)1972Murat Wrote:  Does the egg really have a tangible benefit? Is it a proven fact? Because new studies pop up every day about all sorts of things. Like the couple of studies I have read in the last 4-5 months that claim if you do not have celiac disease, a gluten free diet has zero benefits and there is no such things as gluten sensitivity. You either have celiac disease or you are fine.

1. You are right about going gluten free. It does not give a person any advantage if they
don't have celiac disease. Nobody should go gluten free, thinking that it helped Novak and
it will help me also.

2. As far as eggs are concerned they provide more than tangible benefit. It has been
shown to be more effective than blood doping and blood doping is banned.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
14-Sep-2014 10:10 AM
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1972Murat Online
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(14-Sep-2014 10:03 AM)Billie Wrote:  The way we eat and what we eat does effect our overall well being, I thought that would be very understandable to all people. But maybe not, maybe there are people who eat whatever they want and how much they want and think that is OK. I certainly know which foods don't sit well with me so I avoid them. Anyway if you have somebody in your family with stomach problems like I have in mine, you will realize that what they eat or avoid eating helps them tremendously. Wink


That's not the issue Billie. I am sure everyone knows your diet effects your health. It is the "fads" that come on go that bothers me. Take the story of the egg (real egg) for example. It was good for you, then it was bad, but good again until it was bad but now it is good. Just use your head, you know. Same with the gluten stuff maybe. Gluten free food industry sky rocketed after a couple of studies said gluten was bad for you. Now other studies say it has no effect on you as long as you do not have celiac disease.
Just like you said, you will know what makes you feel good or bad. When I eat a lot of carbs, I have heartburn, when I stay carb free heartburn goes away despite the fact that I eat a lot of fat and meat.

14-Sep-2014 10:10 AM
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Kieran (09-14-2014)
Billie Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(14-Sep-2014 10:10 AM)1972Murat Wrote:  
(14-Sep-2014 10:03 AM)Billie Wrote:  The way we eat and what we eat does effect our overall well being, I thought that would be very understandable to all people. But maybe not, maybe there are people who eat whatever they want and how much they want and think that is OK. I certainly know which foods don't sit well with me so I avoid them. Anyway if you have somebody in your family with stomach problems like I have in mine, you will realize that what they eat or avoid eating helps them tremendously. Wink


That's not the issue Billie. I am sure everyone knows your diet effects your health. It is the "fads" that come on go that bothers me. Take the story of the egg (real egg) for example. It was good for you, then it was bad, but good again until it was bad but now it is good. Just use your head, you know. Same with the gluten stuff maybe. Gluten free food industry sky rocketed after a couple of studies said gluten was bad for you. Now other studies say it has no effect on you as long as you do not have celiac disease.
Just like you said, you will know what makes you feel good or bad. When I eat a lot of carbs, I have heartburn, when I stay carb free heartburn goes away despite the fact that I eat a lot of fat and meat.

Murat you are still young and you think you can eat a lot of fat and that is OK, but it will catch up with you eventually. As far as gluten free diet, nobody is forcing you to do it or others unless you have health issues. But if you remove gluten from your food, you have to have a diet that will replace it. Yes, people can be sensitive to some ingredients and it is wise to avoid them. I am of opinion that all things in moderate consumptions can't greatly harm an average healthy person. I would not go on gluten free diet just because it is popular, I would go on it if gluten affected my ability to perform my best. As simple as that. But people today are kind of extremist in almost every aspect of life, for most part.

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14-Sep-2014 10:22 AM
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1972Murat Online
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
^ I am not that young , you know....Sad


Big Smile

14-Sep-2014 10:28 AM
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Billie Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(14-Sep-2014 10:28 AM)1972Murat Wrote:  ^ I am not that young , you know....Sad


Big Smile

Ha Ha, I know your age, everybody doesLolz

And now would be the perfect time to cut a little bit on meat. Next time you fire up the BBQ, put some veggies on instead of another shish kabob Wink

If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world. NT
14-Sep-2014 10:34 AM
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1972Murat (09-14-2014)
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(14-Sep-2014 10:34 AM)Billie Wrote:  
(14-Sep-2014 10:28 AM)1972Murat Wrote:  ^ I am not that young , you know....Sad


Big Smile

Ha Ha, I know your age, everybody doesLolz

And now would be the perfect time to cut a little bit on meat. Next time you fire up the BBQ, put some veggies on instead of another shish kabob Wink

That's just it..I love my charcoal BBQ and i put everything on it. Lots of veggies, lots of meat. I am an omnivore...I do not discriminate against any food group. Wink

14-Sep-2014 10:40 AM
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jhar26 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
It probably doesn't add much to what's already been said and I'm in no way an expert on the matter, but I'm against legalizing PED. I have no doubt that there's already some doping going on in tennis and perhaps even on a bigger scale than we can imagine, but to say, "Oh well, let's legalize them then because what's the point" would be admitting defeat. And it's unfair to those who prefer to compete in a 'natural manner.' Even if it's just one in ten than we have to protect that one player out of ten imo.

The goal should be to limit the competition between tennis players and not to have a race between doctors who try to outdo each other in creating the bionic tennis player. Sure, there's no doubt that a guy like Goffin would benefit greatly from bulking up with the help of PED. But that's all the more reason to forbid it. It's about how well he can do with his natural abilities, not about how a artificial Goffin would be able to do. If they wanted a Goffin or Rochus type to be able to compete at the highest level of the sport they should have thought about that at the time when snowshoe-sized racquets with huge sweetspots were introduced into the game.

And not everyone would benefit in the same way from legalizing PED either. Take cycling and EPO as an example. I don't know the scientific name for it, but there came a point where cyclists were allowed to have a whatever it's called of 50. But some have a whatever it's called of 46 even if they don't take EPO. Others have only 36. So one would only be allowed to add 4 of whatever it's called to his natural abilities whereas someone elso was allowed to add 14. But if they would have said, "no limit - do whatever you want" people would have died. There were cyclists who had blood like syrup from using EPO.
15-Sep-2014 03:14 AM
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Kieran (09-15-2014)
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Btw - how do you guys feel about the so-called "silent bans"? I for one think it's nonsense. If it was true the powers that be would be worse than the actual offenders. If for the sake of argument I would win a major and I get caught taking PED - how would that work then? I would get a silent ban so as to not to hurt the image of the sport, but at the same time I get to keep my title? If I were that player I'd gladly take it. I get to keep my title and my money and after a six month (or whatever) holiday I'd come back as though nothing has happened.
15-Sep-2014 04:02 AM
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
There's no myth regarding silent bans in tennis as the Cilic case pointed out and also young Aussie player Brad Mousley served a silent ban. Cilic was told to make up a knee injury as a withdrawal from Wimbledon for a ban he was already serving.

Here's the info on Brad Mousley's silent ban.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/show...#pid126569

Regarding silent bans and keeping titles, it'd be a disgrace if it happened as they should strip the title(s) as they did to Lance.
15-Sep-2014 05:25 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
The moment a player refuses a test or tests positive for a banned substance ITF/ATP should
immediately make it public. Currently, their practice is to not say anything under the guise
that they do not talk about an ongoing investigation.

Here, I would like them to take a cue from the legal system. The moment a person is
arrested for some wrong doing, it is immediately public information. However, the mere
arrest does not mean the person is guilty, the person has to be charged with a crime and
then it has to play out in the legal system etc.

Similarly, ITF/ATP should immediately make any positive test or refusal of test a
public information with the caveat that the person is innocent until proven guilty and
then proceed with the investigation.

To begin with that would give some transparency to the process and we don't have
to wonder whether player Z is going through silent ban when Z is out of action for
an extended period of time.

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15-Sep-2014 10:17 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
I kind of agree with you, GSM, in the sense of transparency protecting the innocent, and this is something that all the top players have argued as well. It's unfair that rumours abound without substance and this may in part be due to the system and how it works, and of course, it may in part be down to base human nature, and the nature of fandom, which wouldn't change, regardless of how the news of failed tests is brought to us.

I don't see what harm greater transparency can have, and if anything, fear of immediate exposure will act as a deterrent of sorts, if deterrents work.

The issue of a silent ban is a grave one, and one open to blind misrepresentation. Cilic didn't serve a silent ban. He withdrew from Wimbledon while an investigation was taking place. It was proper that this investigation happen and it was his right that there should be a proper process followed, and he withdrew from tennis immediately, falsely claiming to be injured.

Had his failed test been announced immediately, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Eventually, of course, the failed tests are announced, after due process has been observed, which is inevitable. But are the ITF doing the sport any favours by taking so long in announcing failed tests? Or is there merit in waiting until everything is legally rubber-stamped? I think that in the case of conspiracy theorists, rabid fans, etc, an early announcement might spike their guns but not affect their blindness, but for the sake of doing things properly, and protecting the innocent, what is the benefit of waiting until the investigation is over before announcing the results?

We also have to bear in mind that the drugs issue is massively contentious and gossip is king. If a rumour began that Player Z was taking his time in the toilet giving a sample, imagine the frenzy among trolls and conspiracy theorists, drawing conclusions and leaping into wild fantasy. But that sort of thing happens anyway, and so shouldn't get in the way of how this is handled. My long held view is that there should be stronger penalties for drug cheats, justice should be blind, and of course, tennis can't clean it's own stable...

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16-Sep-2014 03:01 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(15-Sep-2014 04:02 AM)jhar26 Wrote:  Btw - how do you guys feel about the so-called "silent bans"? I for one think it's nonsense. If it was true the powers that be would be worse than the actual offenders. If for the sake of argument I would win a major and I get caught taking PED - how would that work then? I would get a silent ban so as to not to hurt the image of the sport, but at the same time I get to keep my title? If I were that player I'd gladly take it. I get to keep my title and my money and after a six month (or whatever) holiday I'd come back as though nothing has happened.

Exactly.

And even further, it would make all the top players complicit in the silence, which is unimaginable. Ex-pros too, whose records are being broken by drug fiends.

They stay silent? This is unimaginable.

Then the player returns to the tour, handshakes all round, big grins at the net while he beats an opponent, and the opponent stays silent?

File under, "Brown, Dan..." No No

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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
^ We've no idea what the situation could entail. In the case of Cilic the Croatian media leaked the failed test and the idiots at the ITF wouldn't even have known otherwise as their testing sucks. Many top ex pros have been rumored to have been taking stuff too so they probably should stay silent. Some even admitted they took steroids unknowingly for 6 years (John McEnroe). Sure, he didn't know. Right.

Regarding players staying silent when the player returns to the tour, the authorities may well threaten them if they talk for all we know.
16-Sep-2014 04:36 AM
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