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General Doping/PEDs Discussion
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(12-Sep-2014 08:25 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  I really do get the equal treatment, to some extent. One fails a test, and has a shorter ban, and one refuses a test, and gets a longer one. On the one hand, it seems odd. But refusing a test has to be taken seriously, too, does it not? But my other curiosity is that you do have an inclination to be suspicious. Why so inclined to champion Troicki, when you're also so willing to think poorly of players with no sanctions?

Anyway, I do think the Cilic/Troicki situation seemed clearly unfairly handled. I can't believe that the ITF thinks that makes sense.

I don't for one second think Troicki is innocent. I'm just curious to see how long it takes him to get back to a decent ranking and level of play and he's clearly having a much harder road back than Cilic did. Cilic and his team must be laughing their asses off. And of course again, these two guys are just the tip of the iceberg imo. The worst offenders have it down to a T or maybe they don't and it's just a case of the ITF turning a blind eye. We'll probably never know the answer to that one.
(This post was last modified: 12-Sep-2014 08:33 PM by Front242.)
12-Sep-2014 08:32 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(12-Sep-2014 08:32 PM)Front242 Wrote:  
(12-Sep-2014 08:25 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  I really do get the equal treatment, to some extent. One fails a test, and has a shorter ban, and one refuses a test, and gets a longer one. On the one hand, it seems odd. But refusing a test has to be taken seriously, too, does it not? But my other curiosity is that you do have an inclination to be suspicious. Why so inclined to champion Troicki, when you're also so willing to think poorly of players with no sanctions?

Anyway, I do think the Cilic/Troicki situation seemed clearly unfairly handled. I can't believe that the ITF thinks that makes sense.

I don't for one second think Troicki is innocent. I'm just curious to see how long it takes him to get back to a decent ranking and level of play and he's clearly having a much harder road back than Cilic did. Cilic and his team must be laughing their asses off. And of course again, these two guys are just the tip of the iceberg imo. The worst offenders have it down to a T or maybe they don't and it's just a case of the ITF turning a blind eye. We'll probably never know the answer to that one.

So you don't think either is innocent. And what about going forward? Given that both were "caught" and/or sanctioned, why wouldn't they be incredibly cautious, now? With Cilic winning the USO, there are not only eyes on him, but on the ITF. Why don't you think that makes them all prepared to be super-clean? Maybe this win by Cilic forces the hand, a bit, for disclosure and clarity.
12-Sep-2014 08:57 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
^ I don't think it makes anyone prepared to be super clean. Rather they'll just learn how to micro dose properly and if caught blame their mums again. Maybe they could say the babysitter bought HGH and injected it into their water bottles next time Rolleyes
12-Sep-2014 09:06 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
So they're all dirty, in your estimation?
12-Sep-2014 09:33 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(12-Sep-2014 09:33 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  So they're all dirty, in your estimation?

It's just as possible as buying the lame excuses of I feel sick, please put away your needle and my mum bought glucose tablets in France that contained a banned substance, Contador's contaminated steak (I think britbox said the likelihood scientifically of that happening was 1 in 3 million or something like that), Gasquet's cocaine excuse from a kiss in a nightclub (incidentally a passing comment made by Nadal and Gasquet had the nerve to use that as his excuse! Cocaine isn't performance enhancing anyway but just saying this was how the situation went), Canas using a diuretic (I've posted links as to how these can be used as masking agents for PEDs by helping urinate more frequently). There's no need for a tennis player to want to lose water weight so I think that answers that one...

The list is endless and the fact is they all pretty much use the lame I bought a contaminated product excuse. If the authorities are going to believe everyone who ever says that why have any doping controls? They let them all off the hook.
12-Sep-2014 09:57 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Again, just to be clear, you're saying that since there is no effective governance, and the temptation is so strong, that they all do it. #1 through #1000. Is that your stance?

Also, as a curiosity, I know WADA sanctions certain recreational drugs, (you mentioned cocaine, and I'm also thinking about marijuana,) what do you think about those, since they don't enhance performance?
12-Sep-2014 11:16 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(12-Sep-2014 11:16 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  Again, just to be clear, you're saying that since there is no effective governance, and the temptation is so strong, that they all do it. #1 through #1000. Is that your stance?

Also, as a curiosity, I know WADA sanctions certain recreational drugs, (you mentioned cocaine, and I'm also thinking about marijuana,) what do you think about those, since they don't enhance performance?

Not necessarily but are you equally saying they're all innocent? I'm merely pointing out the obvious, that is, lame excuses are the norm and if they continue to believe everyone who produces such lame excuses it's simple to get away with dishonesty and crime. Doping in sport is a crime. They're winning huge money not to mention worldwide fame from drugs, without which they couldn't win.

Now sure, maybe some are genuinely innocent (equally so, maybe they're not) but who do you choose to believe is innocent out of the ones who've given pretty damn lame and ancient excuses (most common is the contaminated products, food, etc.) ? If you believe all of them I think it's a bit unlikely they're all innocent personally. Also, in no way do I think players 1-1000 all dope. Not a hope. But clearly a lot more do than just the random players who've been given bans. They're just the unlucky/stupid few who've been caught and quite possibly the clever ones will forever continue to evade the system or simply the ITF don't want to expose the biggest offenders for fear of killing their sport like what happened in cycling so even if caught they won't do anything.
12-Sep-2014 11:31 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
I see no point sanctioning marijuana or cocaine btw since what people do at home is their own business and these drugs in no way increase performance in sports. Being high is hardly gonna win tennis matches unless both players are high and the less high players wins!
12-Sep-2014 11:32 PM
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
I think most common men cannot go to work drunk. For tennis player, playing tennis
is their job and getting on to court is going to job. Even though cocaine, drinks etc may
not be performance enhancing (actually performance decreasing) the ITF/ATP is right
in banning them in order to protect the image and integrity of the sport.

However, they should give a pass on these recreational drugs (not even test for them)
in out of competition situation.

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13-Sep-2014 12:06 AM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(12-Sep-2014 11:31 PM)Front242 Wrote:  
(12-Sep-2014 11:16 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  Again, just to be clear, you're saying that since there is no effective governance, and the temptation is so strong, that they all do it. #1 through #1000. Is that your stance?

Also, as a curiosity, I know WADA sanctions certain recreational drugs, (you mentioned cocaine, and I'm also thinking about marijuana,) what do you think about those, since they don't enhance performance?

Not necessarily but are you equally saying they're all innocent? I'm merely pointing out the obvious, that is, lame excuses are the norm and if they continue to believe everyone who produces such lame excuses it's simple to get away with dishonesty and crime. Doping in sport is a crime. They're winning huge money not to mention worldwide fame from drugs, without which they couldn't win.

Now sure, maybe some are genuinely innocent (equally so, maybe they're not) but who do you choose to believe is innocent out of the ones who've given pretty damn lame and ancient excuses (most common is the contaminated products, food, etc.) ? If you believe all of them I think it's a bit unlikely they're all innocent personally. Also, in no way do I think players 1-1000 all dope. Not a hope. But clearly a lot more do than just the random players who've been given bans. They're just the unlucky/stupid few who've been caught and quite possibly the clever ones will forever continue to evade the system or simply the ITF don't want to expose the biggest offenders for fear of killing their sport like what happened in cycling so even if caught they won't do anything.

I wouldn't be naive enough to say that they're all innocent, but I don't think that evidence proves that it's that pervasive, either. A sports doctor friend says that you can detect doping from a notable spike in results. In the top players, we don't see that. Also, there are other factors, such as new coaches. And you don't take into account personal integrity that might keep players from doing it. I think that leaves you with a smaller rather than larger sample that might be tempted to it.
13-Sep-2014 01:07 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Well I do take integrity into account actually. Hence why I said not a hope they're all doping...but, on the other hand, money has a huge impact on integrity too. And we're talking big, big money. Yes, a notable spike in results is a good indicator and it's unfortunate but it casts suspicion therefore on many. Take fitness models, for example. They know they won't get magazine covers and huge sponsorship deals without steroids so they eventually have no choice but to get in to the dark side. Of course they all laughably claim to still be natural then or they'd lose all their sponsorship deals. Substitute EPO/blood doping for steroids in tennis and the same temptation is there.
13-Sep-2014 06:14 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
^ Also, it's not just integrity. Some people also value their health and hence why they're totally against drugs in sport.
13-Sep-2014 06:21 AM
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1972Murat Online
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Integrity...brings me to another question: With so much at stake, rankings, sponsorships, money, if there was a PED that you knew that was never going to be detected...as far as the testing agencies were concerned, it did not even exist, would you take it (as a pro player) ?

13-Sep-2014 04:14 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(13-Sep-2014 04:14 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  Integrity...brings me to another question: With so much at stake, rankings, sponsorships, money, if there was a PED that you knew that was never going to be detected...as far as the testing agencies were concerned, it did not even exist, would you take it (as a pro player) ?

If the testing agencies were unaware of its existence, it wouldn't be illegal, but I get your point. I don't think we can expect that top tennis players have greater morals than top sports people in other fields. It would come down to the players themselves, and whatever moral resources they draw on...

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13-Sep-2014 04:18 PM
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1972Murat Online
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(13-Sep-2014 04:18 PM)Kieran Wrote:  
(13-Sep-2014 04:14 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  Integrity...brings me to another question: With so much at stake, rankings, sponsorships, money, if there was a PED that you knew that was never going to be detected...as far as the testing agencies were concerned, it did not even exist, would you take it (as a pro player) ?

If the testing agencies were unaware of its existence, it wouldn't be illegal, but I get your point. I don't think we can expect that top tennis players have greater morals than top sports people in other fields. It would come down to the players themselves, and whatever moral resources they draw on...

The bolded part is actually the heart of the question. YOU know what it does to you. You are sure of its benefits . It just has not showed up on the radar of the agencies yet. Is it fair game then?

13-Sep-2014 04:24 PM
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Kieran (09-13-2014)
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
If it's not banned, it's fair game for anybody...

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13-Sep-2014 04:32 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(13-Sep-2014 04:14 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  Integrity...brings me to another question: With so much at stake, rankings, sponsorships, money, if there was a PED that you knew that was never going to be detected...as far as the testing agencies were concerned, it did not even exist, would you take it (as a pro player) ?

Xenon gas and argon were only recently banned by WADA and currently they have no test for it. Many believe it's been used by athletes for years and why not if it can't even be tested for. Not saying I agree with using it obviously but to answer your question, that's one performance enhancer that can't be detected and the benefits include calming nerves and improved red blood cell count and therefore better stamina.
13-Sep-2014 05:54 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
I posted links to Xenon gas here previously http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/show...#pid133713
13-Sep-2014 05:57 PM
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
(13-Sep-2014 04:24 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  
(13-Sep-2014 04:18 PM)Kieran Wrote:  
(13-Sep-2014 04:14 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  Integrity...brings me to another question: With so much at stake, rankings, sponsorships, money, if there was a PED that you knew that was never going to be detected...as far as the testing agencies were concerned, it did not even exist, would you take it (as a pro player) ?

If the testing agencies were unaware of its existence, it wouldn't be illegal, but I get your point. I don't think we can expect that top tennis players have greater morals than top sports people in other fields. It would come down to the players themselves, and whatever moral resources they draw on...

The bolded part is actually the heart of the question. YOU know what it does to you. You are sure of its benefits . It just has not showed up on the radar of the agencies yet. Is it fair game then?

Was not this the case for the eggs that Novak was using?

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13-Sep-2014 06:09 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues
Sure was.
13-Sep-2014 06:25 PM
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