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Front242 Offline
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General Doping/PEDs Discussion
"Marin Cilic doping scandal hangs over US Open final as short bans leave questions about drugs in tennis".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/...ennis.html
(This post was last modified: 03-Oct-2014 09:08 PM by tented.)
10-Sep-2014 02:48 AM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(09-Sep-2014 09:37 PM)TsarMatt Wrote:  It's funny.

We all know those threads and discussions when people ask 'out of all the players who have yet to win a slam, who is most likely?' - seldom did I ever see Cilic mentioned. It was always Tsonga, Berdych, Wawrinka (prior to AO '14), etc. I mean, if anybody would've told me that Cilic was going to be a Grand Slam champion in 2014, I would have seriously doubted it. He just seemed like one of those players who would always lag around the top 20 and that's pretty much it.

Tennis is a remarkably unpredictable sport, and it's great to see and be apart of this. Usually it's always the Big 4 taking the majors, but things are changing and it's fun.

Honest to god: If someone had made a bet with me that Wawrinka and Cilic would both win slams in 2014, placed all of his savings on it, I would have literally placed every single dime I own against it happening...I'd also be broke right now and probably unable to make this post because I would have no longer owned a laptop.

I'm not even joking, I'm not a betting man but I WOULD have taken that bet.
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 02:59 AM by Broken_Shoelace.)
10-Sep-2014 02:58 AM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 02:48 AM)Front242 Wrote:  "Marin Cilic doping scandal hangs over US Open final as short bans leave questions about drugs in tennis".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/...ennis.html

I won't speculate, but this is the worst thing that could have happened for tennis as far as bad publicity goes: Cilic winning a slam so soon after his ban. I personally don't care much but yeah, it's going to bring negative attention.

PS: I think PEDs should be legal.
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 03:00 AM by Broken_Shoelace.)
10-Sep-2014 03:00 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
Yup, it's a serious kick in the nuts for tennis. The thing about legal PEDs though is some people's bodies benefit and adapt to them better than others so it wouldn't be an even field as bizarre as that sounds. Not everyone who takes HGH and Sustanon 250 will turn out like Ronnie Coleman even if they eat the same and train the same as him.
10-Sep-2014 03:05 AM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 03:05 AM)Front242 Wrote:  Yup, it's a serious kick in the nuts for tennis. The thing about legal PEDs though is some people's bodies benefit and adapt to them better than others so it wouldn't be an even field as bizarre as that sounds. Not everyone who takes HGH and Sustanon 250 will turn out like Ronnie Coleman even if they eat the same and train the same as him.

And not everyone's bodies react the same way to the (legal) supplements they're taking now. That's the thing that gets me with PEDs, banning them is so arbitrary, because there are a ton of supplements players take for performance enhancing that aren't illegal. And the same supplements might become illegal in a few years. So I mean, if "performance enhancing" has such negative connotation, then ban everything. Alternatively, you could allow everything. I'm fine with one or the other. Neither is realistic, mind you, but the way things are now is pretty hypocritical.
10-Sep-2014 03:41 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
^ Agreed, yup.
10-Sep-2014 07:22 AM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
I sort of agree. If a PED is in anyway harmful to an athletes health. Even something that shrinks your junk then they should be banned. If.. in reasonable quantities... it is not harmful, then I really don't care. I make that qualification because I hate the idea of kids being exposed/pressured into taking harmful toxins. If there was a way to avoid THAT, then.. heck they're adults they can do what they want! In any sport! Even my absolute favs.. 100m sprint and boxing
10-Sep-2014 07:42 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 07:42 AM)federberg Wrote:  I sort of agree. If a PED is in anyway harmful to an athletes health. Even something that shrinks your junk then they should be banned. If.. in reasonable quantities... it is not harmful, then I really don't care. I make that qualification because I hate the idea of kids being exposed/pressured into taking harmful toxins. If there was a way to avoid THAT, then.. heck they're adults they can do what they want! In any sport! Even my absolute favs.. 100m sprint and boxing

Well that's one thing about making PEDs legal. Even those completely against the idea would have no choice but to join the dark side as they couldn't compete otherwise. In fact that's probably true already. If everyone was taking very hardcore stuff though we'd likely see shorter careers. You could argue PEDs can also lengthen careers but it depends on the person in question. Imagine if a skinny little runt like Goffin or Simon suddenly started doing HGH and Sustanon 250 to bulk up. Their natural frames are tiny so there's every chance they'd have serious joint pains from serious muscle gain and end up destroying themselves. If not before retiring then certainly after their careers were over they'd probably be in bits. In that respect you have to think keeping stuff banned is better.

In pro body building, power lifting etc all the above drugs are the norm but this is tennis and I personally wouldn't welcome a ton of muscle bound super human freaks who never tire out there.
10-Sep-2014 08:25 AM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 08:25 AM)Front242 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 07:42 AM)federberg Wrote:  I sort of agree. If a PED is in anyway harmful to an athletes health. Even something that shrinks your junk then they should be banned. If.. in reasonable quantities... it is not harmful, then I really don't care. I make that qualification because I hate the idea of kids being exposed/pressured into taking harmful toxins. If there was a way to avoid THAT, then.. heck they're adults they can do what they want! In any sport! Even my absolute favs.. 100m sprint and boxing

Well that's one thing about making PEDs legal. Even those completely against the idea would have no choice but to join the dark side as they couldn't compete otherwise. In fact that's probably true already. If everyone was taking very hardcore stuff though we'd likely see shorter careers. You could argue PEDs can also lengthen careers but it depends on the person in question. Imagine if a skinny little runt like Goffin or Simon suddenly started doing HGH and Sustanon 250 to bulk up. Their natural frames are tiny so there's every chance they'd have serious joint pains from serious muscle gain and end up destroying themselves. If not before retiring then certainly after their careers were over they'd probably be in bits. In that respect you have to think keeping stuff banned is better.

In pro body building, power lifting etc all the above drugs are the norm but this is tennis and I personally wouldn't welcome a ton of muscle bound super human freaks who never tire out there.

I don't agree that PEDs shorten careers. Based on what evidence? These guys aren't body builders. They're not mindlessly injecting themselves with whatever steroids or other substances to build body mass. They do everything rather scientifically, and taking performance enhancers would be no different. In fact, PEDs have been known to speed up the injury healing process, help players recover after practice/matches, etc... In fact, things like Testosterone Replacement Therapy and other similar treatments/substances help as athletes get older.

Of course, if done rather carelessly or ignorantly it could have negative effects, but that's up to the players to be smart about it.
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 08:48 AM by Broken_Shoelace.)
10-Sep-2014 08:47 AM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
^ Yes I don't think most tennis players would be taking anabolic steroids or even HGH. EPO, blood doping and any other stimulant to help endurance and recovery without putting on too much mass would probably be the most targeted and I think it'd help extend their careers if anything.

My thoughts on PED's is right on line with Federberg's. If there comes a day where it is deemed to be 100% harmless then I have no problem with them becoming legal. But many PED's and of course steroids are thought or known to have bad side effects and athletes should never have to choose between being at a competitive disadvantage (if there were tons of juicers like cycling) and putting their health at risk.
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 08:58 AM by DarthFed.)
10-Sep-2014 08:56 AM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 03:00 AM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 02:48 AM)Front242 Wrote:  "Marin Cilic doping scandal hangs over US Open final as short bans leave questions about drugs in tennis".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/...ennis.html

I won't speculate, but this is the worst thing that could have happened for tennis as far as bad publicity goes: Cilic winning a slam so soon after his ban. I personally don't care much but yeah, it's going to bring negative attention.

PS: I think PEDs should be legal.

I disagree on both counts. I don't think PEDs should be illegal (for the same reason given
by several others already, due to bad side effects and indirectly forcing even those who
want to be free of it to use it).

I actually think Cilic winning USO is a good thing that happened to Tennis. Now that he
won, all these doping and ban are getting lot of attention and these issues are right at the
center. This would hopefully force ATP and ITF to clean up their act and bring the hammer
on all offending players.

If Cilic did not win the USO, all the doping and ban would just be a side story and the
general media would not have bothered to talk about it.

So, IMO it is a blessing in disguise for tennis.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 02:12 PM by GameSetAndMath.)
10-Sep-2014 02:07 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 08:47 AM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 08:25 AM)Front242 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 07:42 AM)federberg Wrote:  I sort of agree. If a PED is in anyway harmful to an athletes health. Even something that shrinks your junk then they should be banned. If.. in reasonable quantities... it is not harmful, then I really don't care. I make that qualification because I hate the idea of kids being exposed/pressured into taking harmful toxins. If there was a way to avoid THAT, then.. heck they're adults they can do what they want! In any sport! Even my absolute favs.. 100m sprint and boxing

Well that's one thing about making PEDs legal. Even those completely against the idea would have no choice but to join the dark side as they couldn't compete otherwise. In fact that's probably true already. If everyone was taking very hardcore stuff though we'd likely see shorter careers. You could argue PEDs can also lengthen careers but it depends on the person in question. Imagine if a skinny little runt like Goffin or Simon suddenly started doing HGH and Sustanon 250 to bulk up. Their natural frames are tiny so there's every chance they'd have serious joint pains from serious muscle gain and end up destroying themselves. If not before retiring then certainly after their careers were over they'd probably be in bits. In that respect you have to think keeping stuff banned is better.

In pro body building, power lifting etc all the above drugs are the norm but this is tennis and I personally wouldn't welcome a ton of muscle bound super human freaks who never tire out there.

I don't agree that PEDs shorten careers. Based on what evidence? These guys aren't body builders. They're not mindlessly injecting themselves with whatever steroids or other substances to build body mass. They do everything rather scientifically, and taking performance enhancers would be no different. In fact, PEDs have been known to speed up the injury healing process, help players recover after practice/matches, etc... In fact, things like Testosterone Replacement Therapy and other similar treatments/substances help as athletes get older.

Of course, if done rather carelessly or ignorantly it could have negative effects, but that's up to the players to be smart about it.

Didn't get to reply earlier and then went to the gym but regarding shortening careers I was referring to super skinny guys like Goffin and Simon who if they had the option of bulking up dramatically through legalization of PEDs, would definitely imo run the risk of seriously damaging their bones and joints in the not too distant future. Imagine a guy as light as either of them doing Sustanon 250 and HGH to bulk up a ton and then EPO for stamina. Their bodies have been used to being very small all their lives and boom, suddenly huge. That would shorten careers imo. A little extra size for already medium-large sized guys wouldn't likely have any detrimental effects though.

Pretty sure many of the players out there are already using testosterone replacement patches between matches for recovery and tennis will remain a complete and utter haven and joke for drug abusers until WADA take over which will sadly probably never happen.

The whereabouts rule, for example, stipulates that players need to make themselves available for 1 hour per day between 6am-11pm for random testing at all times. For years players have abused the living hell out of this by simply using the PED window of the hours between this to do their dirty blood doping and other activities. That window is therefore 100% useless and you'd want to be a complete idiot to get caught.
10-Sep-2014 03:40 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
Regarding most tennis players not taking steroids, I agree it's mostly drugs for stamina being used and testosterone patches for recovery but if PEDs were made legal then I'd imagine the skinny guys out there would likely jump at the chance to add a bit/a lot(!) of extra power as it'd clearly help their games no end.
10-Sep-2014 04:09 PM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
That is a good point Front. It is dismissive on our part to think none of the players would benefit from (and therefore could be using) strength/mass building supplements.
10-Sep-2014 05:46 PM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 05:46 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  That is a good point Front. It is dismissive on our part to think none of the players would benefit from (and therefore could be using) strength/mass building supplements.

Well Cilic's mum (LOL, yeah right!) apparently bought his Coramine glucose lozenges which were the cause of testing positive for nikethamide. He was taking them to help his absorption of creatine. Still can't believe a grown man blamed his mum and even more stupid and baffling that the authorities believed that rubbish!

http://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/2...ic-appeal/
10-Sep-2014 08:31 PM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
It would be really great if you guys would take some of this conversation to the bio-passport thread, where it could be instructive, and continue the conversation there. (Remember, this thread will fall down, and this conversation will be lost, but the passport one will stay active.) If you like, we could split off some of this conversation and put it there, to keep it going.
10-Sep-2014 08:44 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
^ Sounds good, Moxie. Go for it.
10-Sep-2014 08:47 PM
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[split] 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 08:31 PM)Front242 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 05:46 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  That is a good point Front. It is dismissive on our part to think none of the players would benefit from (and therefore could be using) strength/mass building supplements.

Well Cilic's mum (LOL, yeah right!) apparently bought his Coramine glucose lozenges which were the cause of testing positive for nikethamide. He was taking them to help his absorption of creatine. Still can't believe a grown man blamed his mum and even more stupid and baffling that the authorities believed that rubbish!

http://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/2...ic-appeal/

Hey, at least he didn't punch her in the face in an elevator.
10-Sep-2014 09:28 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 09:28 PM)Luxilon Borg Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 08:31 PM)Front242 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 05:46 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  That is a good point Front. It is dismissive on our part to think none of the players would benefit from (and therefore could be using) strength/mass building supplements.

Well Cilic's mum (LOL, yeah right!) apparently bought his Coramine glucose lozenges which were the cause of testing positive for nikethamide. He was taking them to help his absorption of creatine. Still can't believe a grown man blamed his mum and even more stupid and baffling that the authorities believed that rubbish!

http://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/2...ic-appeal/

Hey, at least he didn't punch her in the face in an elevator.

REALLY no need to go there, LB. Please, we're having enough time with staying on topic. If you want to talk about that, you know where to take it.
10-Sep-2014 09:43 PM
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RE: 2014 US Open Final: Nishikori vs. Cilic
(10-Sep-2014 09:43 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 09:28 PM)Luxilon Borg Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 08:31 PM)Front242 Wrote:  
(10-Sep-2014 05:46 PM)DarthFed Wrote:  That is a good point Front. It is dismissive on our part to think none of the players would benefit from (and therefore could be using) strength/mass building supplements.

Well Cilic's mum (LOL, yeah right!) apparently bought his Coramine glucose lozenges which were the cause of testing positive for nikethamide. He was taking them to help his absorption of creatine. Still can't believe a grown man blamed his mum and even more stupid and baffling that the authorities believed that rubbish!

http://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/2...ic-appeal/

Hey, at least he didn't punch her in the face in an ehalevator.

REALLY no need to go there, LB. Please, we're having enough time with staying on topic. If you want to talk about that, you know where to take it.

Ha, ok Mox. I thought Front's comment about Marin blaming his mom was seriously funny...I thought I could one up him...apparently I failed.Angel
(This post was last modified: 10-Sep-2014 10:01 PM by Luxilon Borg.)
10-Sep-2014 09:51 PM
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