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BlackLivesMatter
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
"The only way that this argument holds in any water in the manner that you intend it to is if you can document a pervasive pattern of police brutality with hard numbers that show a disproportionate ratio in relation to other related statistics. So, for example, if you could document that the number of homicides of cops against black people in an area with as low a crime rate as neighboring non-black areas was much higher for a period of years, then you'd be talking. But you are not providing any numbers of this sort. You are just speaking in generalities with a total of 5 cases across a nation of 320 million as your evidence."
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One of the points that have been raised by this campaign has been the dirth of statistics to capture this phenomenon. Local authorities are responsible for collating statistics. I fail to comprehend how you can say there are 5 cases in America. This is the whole point. If this had been recognised as an issue in the past we would all have data that could be discussed, but the Justice Department recently said it's hard to get the data.
(This post was last modified: 23-Apr-2015 09:50 AM by federberg.)
23-Apr-2015 08:29 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
1) Given those kinds of numbers, how petty is it for us as a society to make a big deal out of a couple isolated incidents of police brutality when there is chaos with crime in general in cities like Camden? In Camden alone (just one city), we are talking about 1,995 violent crimes in a single year, including a couple hundred murders. Not to mention the welfare dependency and family breakdown.

2) If you were a cop in an area like Camden, do you think that your attitude on a daily basis would be the same as it would be if you were working in a college town or your standard boring white community in Middle America?
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Answers...

1, It certainly merits discussion, but it doesn't invalidate the purpose of this thread

2, I have no doubt I would justifiable concerns

I would attach an addendum to both of my responses. I do not believe that black people are intrinsically more disposed to crime than white people. I do however believe that poverty, access to opportunities and education has a great deal to do with this issue. How that get's fixed I don't know, but it's likely to be a generational issue. It is simply too much to expect a people who have been downtrodden, for whom the system has systematically disadvantaged to become functioning members of society in an instant. Anyone who believe otherwise is in a fantasy land I'm afraid. A lot of healing has to be done to a segment of society that was victimised for centuries
(This post was last modified: 23-Apr-2015 09:50 AM by federberg.)
23-Apr-2015 08:37 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
"I am not shifting the discussion to anything irrelevant. When you look at the scale of violent crime in areas like St. Louis or Camden, it has an immediate relevance to police attitudes. There are so many crimes for them to track that of course they are going to be more aggressive in those areas than they would be elsewhere. The violent crime rate in Camden is 12 times greater than in the rest of New Jersey. Can you blame cops in that area for being more on edge and more aggressive than they are, say, in Princeton? And don't forget, they are fearing for their lives as well.

And I am saying this as someone who has seen cops be jackasses for no good reason, particularly in college towns, and generally doesn't have a very favorable attitude toward police in general. What I object to is the utter pettiness of bringing up police brutality in respect to race when there are far more significant and widespread problems in the black community than a couple of these isolated incidents.

Finally, I will conclude by saying this: the likes of Riotbeard do not want to have a fundamental conversation about these more important issues because they don't want to face the reality of what so many urban communities have become as a result of their ideas. The Great Society socialist programs of Lyndon Johnson have been in place for 50 years and they have utterly failed. The old Democratic Party activist Bob Beckel - who now works for Fox News - even admitted two years ago that was happened in these communities is not what him and his friends wanted or intended back in the 60s. He admitted it has been a disaster.

But, hey, we shouldn't talk about that. We should celebrate how black people have the "right to vote" 95%-plus in every election for the Democrats. I have a friend who in 2012 was working at an inner-city school that was all black and at the time of the election he heard the students saying that "if Romney won, he would take away condoms and bring back slavery" - clearly what they were hearing from their parents. Those are some really well-informed voters right there, I must say.

And, boy, am I glad I have never once voted in an election. Down with democracy!"

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Well I believe in democracy, at least in so far as it's the best system we have at the moment. What's the alternative?

For someone as strident as you, I'm amused that you don't make use of your vote. No one says that black on black crime isn't important. It is not the issue being discussed in this thread. Honestly, this is like someone opening up a thread about Andy Murray to have it overrun with Fedal arguments! Smile

I've read articles about what it was likes for Black Americans moving north after the civil rights legislation in the 60s. Many were denied access to loans, and systematically disadvantaged. It's too easy to say it's failed. We need to ask the question why this tragedy has happened, and what should be done about it. These are a people who were integral in the development of America into the wealthy nation that it is today, and they historically have been denied access to the American dream. Yes there are success stories, but when the cultural experience is that hope is for the dreamers the majority will not see opportunity if it's right there in front of them. Somehow, they have to be included and encouraged to believe. But as it will take generations. More evidence of success stories will help to accelerate the process, but it will take a long time.

As an aside, there was a great piece in the Financial Times here in England, discussing how black hiphop artists having been given limited opportunities to get their music out to the wider population were forced to become more entrepreneurial, now when you look at the Forbes list of wealthy musicians the to 10 is dominated by people of colour. They were forced to find other ways and have accumulated vast wealth. There will be limited examples like this, but over time more opportunities will become available, I'm convinced of this. But perhaps I'm an optimist!

I thought I would humour you and respond, but I still think the specifics of this thread are interesting enough for us to focus the discussion on the actual topic Wink
(This post was last modified: 23-Apr-2015 09:50 AM by federberg.)
23-Apr-2015 08:52 AM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
Black Lives Matters, all of this was inevitable.It's a shame that people are really Force to make a stand by destroying their own neighborhoods..when you have a racially biased judiciary system, this spawns this havoc.George Zimmerman, the officers in NYC and Ferguson getting exonerated wasn't worth all of this. They were all evil bastards just like Officers Michael Slager and Darren Wilson , one in the same .God bless those communities
27-Apr-2015 10:27 PM
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federberg (04-28-2015)
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
And now it seems that we have to add Freddie Gray to the list. The riots in Baltimore look terrible. The Financial Times has pulled up a quote from Martin Luther King which perfectly encapsulates the problem...

"A riot is the language of the unheard."
28-Apr-2015 03:43 AM
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the AntiPusher (04-28-2015)
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
I found this excerpt from the FT quite depressing...

"But the parallel is more troubling than a mere list. In theocratic states, apostates feature heavily on the rows of the condemned. In the US, it is African-Americans. Wherever the state chooses to play God, it tends to single out other peopleâ€s tribes. In the US, evidence of racial bias in capital sentencing is beyond doubt. It is not just that one in three of the people executed in America are black. It is that they tend to be executed for killing whites. Between 1977 and 2013, 47 per cent of all murder victims in America were black, according to “Black Lives Donâ€t Matter”, a report by the University of North Carolina. Yet only 17 per cent of the victims were black in cases that resulted in execution."
(This post was last modified: 05-May-2015 07:17 AM by federberg.)
05-May-2015 07:17 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
http://news.yahoo.com/mckinney-police-po...17251.html

a 15yr old girl in a bikini! For goodness sake No No
09-Jun-2015 12:44 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
I know it's kinda off-topic, or is it? And of course, who gets to say anymore, when people are entitled to defy all the evidence and call themselves whatever they want to, but is Rachel Dolezal covered under the BlackLivesMatter hashtag?

Or is she a symptom of the problem of race?

Is she a racist?

Or a...er...WTF is she?

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16-Jun-2015 03:23 PM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
'Tell the world what happened': White gunman who shot dead NINE people in mass 'race-hate' shooting at historic black church in South Carolina SPARED one woman to spread news of massacre
The white gunman opened fire at the historic Emanuel AME church in Charleston, South Carolina killing nine people
He let one woman escape so she could tell the world what happened while a child survived by playing dead
Charleston Police say the gunman is still at large and are hunting him down after he opened fire in the church
Police chief Gregory Mullen confirmed there were nine fatalities at the church in the city's downtown
Mullen also said he believes the shooting was a hate crime, he said there are survivors but has not given a number
Among the dead is Rev. Clementa Pinckney, pastor of the church and South Carolina state senator



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...z3dOvsZvVR
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...oting.html

Oh my goodness! What is going on in America? I'm going to have to check out Fox News to see how they report this one...
(This post was last modified: 18-Jun-2015 03:39 AM by federberg.)
18-Jun-2015 03:38 AM
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Kirijax Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
(18-Jun-2015 03:38 AM)federberg Wrote:  'Tell the world what happened': White gunman who shot dead NINE people in mass 'race-hate' shooting at historic black church in South Carolina SPARED one woman to spread news of massacre
The white gunman opened fire at the historic Emanuel AME church in Charleston, South Carolina killing nine people
He let one woman escape so she could tell the world what happened while a child survived by playing dead
Charleston Police say the gunman is still at large and are hunting him down after he opened fire in the church
Police chief Gregory Mullen confirmed there were nine fatalities at the church in the city's downtown
Mullen also said he believes the shooting was a hate crime, he said there are survivors but has not given a number
Among the dead is Rev. Clementa Pinckney, pastor of the church and South Carolina state senator



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...z3dOvsZvVR
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...oting.html

Oh my goodness! What is going on in America? I'm going to have to check out Fox News to see how they report this one...

Hate to say it, but the days when I am thankful I don't live in America anymore are becoming more frequent. The country has just gone straight downhill since I left in '91.

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18-Jun-2015 05:34 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
If I'd read that a black guy had gone on the rampage, it would almost make more sense. What has happened to provoke this type of hatred? What is the cause of the outrage and need for retribution that inspires this type of action? Extraordinary... and deeply saddening
18-Jun-2015 06:25 AM
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nehmeth Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
Thought this was excellent... really excellent. The gentleman who sponsored the sign marched with Dr. Martin Luther King and wanted to make a statement to the community.





(This post was last modified: 22-Jun-2015 07:17 PM by nehmeth.)
22-Jun-2015 07:14 PM
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the AntiPusher Online
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
If the grace of the good people at that church in Charleston , SC during the aftermath of that gutless devil tried to inflict fear and harm , then you haven't been paying attention. A very moving speech by President Obama , amen.
26-Jun-2015 02:43 PM
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federberg (06-30-2015)
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tings.html

Folks on the other side of the pond. Are these church burnings getting traction in the news in the US? Jeez... this is 2015, not 1915!
01-Jul-2015 06:50 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/...to-america

not my paper of choice but a very interesting read!
01-Jul-2015 08:20 AM
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tented Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
The US is saturated with guns, racial problems have never been resolved, and the police have been acquiring military-level equipment (literally), while not adequately screening new recruits for problematic personality traits. I don't want to be a pessimist, however I don't foresee any of these issues being sufficiently addressed in the near future.
01-Jul-2015 10:04 AM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
^Yes agreed tented. The author of the piece in the Guardian is very pessimistic about things changing any time soon. It's extremely depressing that the experience of 2 human beings can be so different, and it's horrifying that a lot of presenters on Fox News refuse to acknowledge that there's even anything wrong No No
01-Jul-2015 10:21 AM
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tented (07-01-2015)
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
(01-Jul-2015 10:04 AM)tented Wrote:  The US is saturated with guns, racial problems have never been resolved, and the police have been acquiring military-level equipment (literally), while not adequately screening new recruits for problematic personality traits. I don't want to be a pessimist, however I don't foresee any of these issues being sufficiently addressed in the near future.


According to the Washington Post, Dylann Roof's parents had an abusive relationship and he dropped out of high school when they got a divorce. He was also a drugee, according to multiple reports. He also believed the standard nonsense version of American history that equates the South with nothing but racism, and to be a rebel, he joined the side of what he thought was the American swastika so he could look and feel hardcore.

Roof was much more a product of our anti-Christian, American-government-created world than he was of a dignified Southern family. His parents named him after Bob Dylan for goodness sake.

And if you want to have a conversation about guns, then I think you should keep in mind that the shooter in Colorado lived within 20 minutes of 7 movie theaters. Only 1 had a no-gun policy and that was the one he chose. Just a coincidence? I am afraid not.
(This post was last modified: 01-Jul-2015 03:33 PM by calitennis127.)
01-Jul-2015 03:33 PM
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Kirijax Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
Sad to say it, because America is my homeland and will always be my country, but I am thankful that I'm raising my kids away from the USA. America is going to have to figure this out, but I wonder if it is just too diversified to overcome these problems. The USA is a very sick country at the moment. It can be so great, but it's killing itself.

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01-Jul-2015 03:53 PM
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federberg Offline
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RE: BlackLivesMatter
Racism also exists in the UK. I'm constantly amazed at the indifference of white ex soccer players to the fact that there are a negligible number of black coaches and managers in the football leagues in England. While black players are a significant percentage of all football teams now. The stats are so overwhelming, it's actually hilarious that anyone with half a brain cell can try to refute this.

But what seems to be happening in the United States seems to be on a whole other level (not in sports though).
02-Jul-2015 03:33 AM
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