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Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
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atttomole Offline
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(07-Jul-2015 05:56 PM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  
(07-Jul-2015 03:02 AM)federberg Wrote:  ^I disagree. There comes a time when you can't blame it on the coach. He is so clearly not a leader. When his colleagues in the Barcelona team have international honours galore, you have to ask, are they the ones making it possible for him to win all those club honours? He's a phenomenal player, but the hype has run so far away from the facts in my view, it's laughable

Iniesta was in garbage form all season, Xavi was bench player all season, Puyol is retired and the only one with international honors who was in remotely good form was Pique. That didn't stop Barcelona from sweeping through everything this season. It's either due to Messi or Pique. I'll go with the former.

i was in fact happy that the notion of "Messi can't do it without Inesta and Xavi" died this season (though apparently not), since both were virtually non factors (though I'il give Iniesta credit for a good performance in the champions league final).

To me, the notion that a player who scores 80+ goals a year, many of which of pure individual brilliance, is doing it due to teammates is laughable. I mean that's the knock against Messi? That he lost a world cup final when Di Maria and Aguero were injured, the coach didn't take Tevez, and his strikers just couldn't finish (which included some awful misses by Higuain and Palacio) in a TEAM sports? That's his biggest crime? That he lost on penalties to Chile because his teammates couldn't convert a penalty?

But Pele, who was a bench player in his first world cup win till the final, was injured early in his second world cup win and was a non factor, was a part of perhaps the greatest international side of all time in his third world cup win (where he was admittedly brilliant), is in a league of his own? Despite never playing in Europe, playing in an era of football were goals came like candy cause nobody had any idea how to defend, and spent his club career in Brazil? Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I find it insane that we're judging players simply on whether they win events that take place once every four years, and completely sweeping under the rug what they do week in, week out, year in, year out.

I laugh at the notion of Pele being the best ever. To me, that's the same as claiming Laver is the best ever (and he would have been statistically, had he been allowed to play more slams).

Maradona? I'll give that some long and hard thought. He was something else. But if Messi isn't Maradona, he's not too far behind.
I also would not say that Messi was successful because of Xavi and Iniesta, but rather because he plays in a team with a well developed system, and that system is perfect for his game. The system is developed from the youth level, and newcomers have to adapt to that system to succeed at Barca. Barcelona made a few changes this year with Rakitic and Suarez coming in, but the system is more or less the same, and the two new guys have adapted well to the system. In fact, the current Barcelona attack is even more devastating than when Guardiola was coach. And Barca still remains formidable, in spite of the changes that have occurred in recent years. Their attack looks stronger (actually frightening), their midfield is still great and they can keep possession of the ball like they have done for the past decade. They still remain the strongest club team right now.
07-Jul-2015 10:17 PM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(07-Jul-2015 10:17 PM)atttomole Wrote:  
(07-Jul-2015 05:56 PM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  
(07-Jul-2015 03:02 AM)federberg Wrote:  ^I disagree. There comes a time when you can't blame it on the coach. He is so clearly not a leader. When his colleagues in the Barcelona team have international honours galore, you have to ask, are they the ones making it possible for him to win all those club honours? He's a phenomenal player, but the hype has run so far away from the facts in my view, it's laughable

Iniesta was in garbage form all season, Xavi was bench player all season, Puyol is retired and the only one with international honors who was in remotely good form was Pique. That didn't stop Barcelona from sweeping through everything this season. It's either due to Messi or Pique. I'll go with the former.

i was in fact happy that the notion of "Messi can't do it without Inesta and Xavi" died this season (though apparently not), since both were virtually non factors (though I'il give Iniesta credit for a good performance in the champions league final).

To me, the notion that a player who scores 80+ goals a year, many of which of pure individual brilliance, is doing it due to teammates is laughable. I mean that's the knock against Messi? That he lost a world cup final when Di Maria and Aguero were injured, the coach didn't take Tevez, and his strikers just couldn't finish (which included some awful misses by Higuain and Palacio) in a TEAM sports? That's his biggest crime? That he lost on penalties to Chile because his teammates couldn't convert a penalty?

But Pele, who was a bench player in his first world cup win till the final, was injured early in his second world cup win and was a non factor, was a part of perhaps the greatest international side of all time in his third world cup win (where he was admittedly brilliant), is in a league of his own? Despite never playing in Europe, playing in an era of football were goals came like candy cause nobody had any idea how to defend, and spent his club career in Brazil? Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I find it insane that we're judging players simply on whether they win events that take place once every four years, and completely sweeping under the rug what they do week in, week out, year in, year out.

I laugh at the notion of Pele being the best ever. To me, that's the same as claiming Laver is the best ever (and he would have been statistically, had he been allowed to play more slams).

Maradona? I'll give that some long and hard thought. He was something else. But if Messi isn't Maradona, he's not too far behind.
I also would not say that Messi was successful because of Xavi and Iniesta, but rather because he plays in a team with a well developed system, and that system is perfect for his game. The system is developed from the youth level, and newcomers have to adapt to that system to succeed at Barca. Barcelona made a few changes this year with Rakitic and Suarez coming in, but the system is more or less the same, and the two new guys have adapted well to the system. In fact, the current Barcelona attack is even more devastating than when Guardiola was coach. And Barca still remains formidable, in spite of the changes that have occurred in recent years. Their attack looks stronger (actually frightening), their midfield is still great and they can keep possession of the ball like they have done for the past decade. They still remain the strongest club team right now.

I disagree that Barca play the same system now that they did under Guardiola. They are far less reliant on possession (Xavi and Iniesta's declines more or less dictated that, and there's a reason they never played at the same time this season), and play more direct Football. For years, their midfield was their heart and soul, but not this year. This year it was all about ways in which their absurdly talented frontline could expose opponents, which meant a lot of reliance on counter-attacks, and more direct football in the build-up play. It also meant more reliance on individual brilliance and one-on-one football, as well as ways in which their forwards linked up with short 1-2's. This was the first year since Eto'o was in the team in which they relied on their striker's movement to free up space for the other two forwards.

Keep in mind, Messi also went back to playing on the right side this year, rather than in the middle, which he had been doing for the past 4 years.

That said, I agree that the system, stability and overall chemistry at Barcelona have certainly helped Messi, but that team wouldn't have won a single champions league since Guardiola took over without him. Not one.

Now, most great players thrived in great teams. Pele did it as mentioned above, in one of the greatest international sides in history. There are 11 players on every side. No player is going to do it alone...well, except Maradona.
(This post was last modified: 08-Jul-2015 01:33 AM by Broken_Shoelace.)
08-Jul-2015 01:32 AM
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britbox (07-08-2015)
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!
08-Jul-2015 08:36 AM
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1972Murat (07-09-2015)
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(08-Jul-2015 01:32 AM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  .well, except Maradona.


...and the hand of God?Wink

Nah, Armando Diego was something special.

09-Jul-2015 01:14 PM
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federberg Offline
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(08-Jul-2015 08:36 AM)Riotbeard Wrote:  While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!

It's awesome there isn't it? I went to a local match there in about 2001. I forget the teams playing. There's a picture of me somewhere slumped on the seat. Had one too many beers that afternoon. Great fun! You're lucky you've seen it after the renovation. When I was there the seats were just concrete
09-Jul-2015 01:28 PM
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Riotbeard (07-09-2015)
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(09-Jul-2015 01:28 PM)federberg Wrote:  
(08-Jul-2015 08:36 AM)Riotbeard Wrote:  While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!

It's awesome there isn't it? I went to a local match there in about 2001. I forget the teams playing. There's a picture of me somewhere slumped on the seat. Had one too many beers that afternoon. Great fun! You're lucky you've seen it after the renovation. When I was there the seats were just concrete

Yes, very fun. We were in center field about the 10th row, so really great seats. We saw a local match Flamengo (Of Rio) vs. a team whose name I can't remember. I wish we had a few too many. They don't sell beer in the stadium anymore. There were sooooo many riot police haha. I guess Brazillian soccer fans can get rowdy.

We flew from New Orleans through Panama, and the panamanian national team was at the same airport bar, haha. I also randomly sat next to a retired professional mexican player (local leagues) on the flight back. I guess the lesson is, if you go to Latin America, you will be surrounded by football.
09-Jul-2015 03:07 PM
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RE: Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game
(09-Jul-2015 01:14 PM)1972Murat Wrote:  
(08-Jul-2015 01:32 AM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  .well, except Maradona.


...and the hand of God?Wink

Nah, Armando Diego was something special.

We did go to the jesus.
09-Jul-2015 03:07 PM
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