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tented Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(08-Sep-2014 11:21 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(22-Aug-2014 11:21 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  I understand the issues that you mention. I did not mean to give you a rigid protocol,
but a sample sketch. The key elements must be to bring in more heads into the process
and have a delay in final decision so that heat of the moment does not adversely
influence the decisions.

Anyway, taking a cue from Israel and Palestine, let us all declare ceasefile until midnight
of Monday, the 8th of September. Chillout

OK, well, I congratulate GSM for respecting the ceasefire till the said time.

Oh, No, GSM is not going to start a war now, just because the ceasefire is over.

All of these drama at Tennis Frontier (TF) was done to prevent discussion of doping in tennis and
allegations with some basis but not hundred per cent proof. It is pure irony that now with Marin Cilic
winning USO, the internet will explode with allegations of doping in tennis and this might
even lead to some actual exposures. TF can now decide as to whether they want to become
a leader in these discussions, which will invariably happen over the internet (whether or
not TF wants to indulge in them) or leave it out and become irrelevant.

We have never, nor are we now, preventing discussion of doping in tennis. We have merely drawn parameters around it, in order to keep the conversations within boundaries which don't open us up to potential legal ramifications due to libel.

It's worth taking a moment to post the definition of that word, so that everyone is on the same page:

libel |ˈlÄ«bÉl|
noun
1 Law a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. Compare with slander.
• the action or crime of publishing a false statement about a person: a councilor who sued two national newspapers for libel | [ as modifier ] : a libel action.
• a false and malicious statement about a person.
• a thing or circumstance that brings undeserved discredit on a person by misrepresentation.


As long as people don't engage in libelous discourse, I don't foresee a problem.

Everyone knows Cilic failed a drugs test. That's a matter of public record; it's not a rumor. That fact can, therefore, be discussed. An example of what you can't say is that he's currently doping. That has not been established as a fact, and is therefore a libelous statement.

In short, stick to the facts.
09-Sep-2014 06:27 AM
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1972Murat Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
GSM, here is a simple question for you : Are you unable to discuss doping issues without pointing the finger at someone or the other without proof? The issue is pretty deep you know. I will give you some ideas: You can discuss:
1- Kinds of performance enhancement and their effects.
2-People in various sports who got caught and their penalties/stories
3-Side effects of doping
4-How effective doping is in tennis as opposed to other sports? Is it even worth it?
5-Should cannabis even be on a doping list when it does not enhance any performance?
6-What do you think about Agassi's admission in his book and how that situation was handled at the time?

See, there are options here. Naming names without knowing anything is just one option.

09-Sep-2014 06:57 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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[split] Waiting for Rafa
(30-Sep-2014 03:16 PM)tented Wrote:  
(30-Sep-2014 03:04 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
Quote: Attempting to bring attention to dictatorial tendencies involved in trying to curb legitimate discussion is not hyperbolic or unfair.

I agree ... although calling anyone "Hitler" is over-the-top. To have described the actions as dictatorial would have been more than enough to have made your point.

The connotation here is nothing to do with anti-Semitism or genocide primarily.
It is a standard usage to say someone is acting like "Hitler" when you want to draw
attention to their dictatorial tendencies. Perhaps, you and several others on this forum are
not used to this usage and so misinterpreting my remark. I am attaching a dictionary
meaning below.

Hitler (ˈhɪtlÉ)
n
1. (Biography) Adolf. (ˈaːdɔlf). Grandmother's maiden name and father's original surname Schicklgrüber. 1889-1945, German dictator, born in Austria. After becoming president of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi party), he attempted to overthrow the government of Bavaria (1923). While in prison he wrote Mein Kampf, expressing his philosophy of the superiority of the Aryan race and the inferiority of the Jews. He was appointed chancellor of Germany (1933), transforming it from a democratic republic into the totalitarian Third Reich, of which he became Führer in 1934. He established concentration camps to exterminate the Jews, rearmed the Rhineland (1936), annexed Austria (1938) and Czechoslovakia, and invaded Poland (1939), which precipitated World War II. He committed suicide

2. a person who displays dictatorial characteristics

So, it is no way over the top.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
01-Oct-2014 11:14 PM
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tented Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
^ GSM,

I'm well aware you weren't implying Moxie is an anti-Semite or engaged in genocide. I get that it was your way of describing what you perceived as "dictatorial tendencies," hence Hitler.

Nevertheless, it was inappropriate. If you had a problem with Moxie, you should have PM'ed her, and discussed it. Calling her Hitler was hyperbolic and unhelpful.
02-Oct-2014 12:35 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
I was giving the benefit of doubt that perhaps folks are unaware that it is a standard usage
that is even defined in dictionaries. If you are aware of it, then it is a difference of opinion and
let us agree to disagree (unless, of course, you want to argue further in which case we can
continue).

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
02-Oct-2014 12:45 AM
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tented Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
(02-Oct-2014 12:45 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  I was giving the benefit of doubt that perhaps folks are unaware that it is a standard usage
that is even defined in dictionaries. If you are aware of it, then it is a difference of opinion and
let us agree to disagree (unless, of course, you want to argue further in which case we can
continue).

No, we're not going to agree to disagree. The use of "Hitler" and other Nazi symbols is highly offensive to many people. Some countries even ban their use entirely.

You're intelligent enough to have come up with other ways to have communicated your perceptions without having reflexively grasped for the "dictator" and "Hitler" tropes.
(This post was last modified: 02-Oct-2014 02:43 PM by tented.)
02-Oct-2014 01:09 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
(02-Oct-2014 12:45 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  I was giving the benefit of doubt that perhaps folks are unaware that it is a standard usage
that is even defined in dictionaries. If you are aware of it, then it is a difference of opinion and
let us agree to disagree (unless, of course, you want to argue further in which case we can
continue).

Maybe it was Eddie Hitler from the UK comedy series Bottom if you've ever seen it ? Big Smile

[Image: tumblr_m1cyop244C1ql3buq.gif]

[Image: bottom.jpg]
02-Oct-2014 02:24 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
I loved it. Clap

Was very sad when Rik Mayall died, I thought he was hilarious in everything, but that show in particular...

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02-Oct-2014 02:37 AM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: Waiting for Rafa
^ Yeah, died tragically young. Apparently his car crash from years ago wrecked him and he was never the same since. Was a class series alright.
02-Oct-2014 02:50 AM
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nehmeth Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(01-Oct-2014 11:14 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(30-Sep-2014 03:16 PM)tented Wrote:  
(30-Sep-2014 03:04 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
Quote: Attempting to bring attention to dictatorial tendencies involved in trying to curb legitimate discussion is not hyperbolic or unfair.

I agree ... although calling anyone "Hitler" is over-the-top. To have described the actions as dictatorial would have been more than enough to have made your point.

2. a person who displays dictatorial characteristics

So, it is no way over the top.

I understand the definitions GSM, but I disagree. It's one thing to say that someone is being dictatorial and quite another to call a poster "Hitler". The latter is quite derogatory.
(This post was last modified: 02-Oct-2014 02:28 PM by nehmeth.)
02-Oct-2014 02:28 PM
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Broken_Shoelace Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
I guess by GSM's definition, any time a tennis player shows skill we can call him Federer.
02-Oct-2014 02:42 PM
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RE: Forum Questions
^^lol that 'bottom' clip might be from when they try and "pull some birds" in a bar, but guess what ?..they are gay..

but that does not stop our intrepid duo, they attempt to chat up the ladies with efforts like "hi birds" "come back lesbians" and "oh you are lebsians ?, don't worry, I will cure you"..

Richard Richard and Eddie Hitler mess it up....once again.

knowing me alan partridge, knowing you tennis frontier..ah ha.
02-Oct-2014 05:30 PM
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Front242 Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(02-Oct-2014 05:30 PM)JesuslookslikeBorg Wrote:  ^^lol that 'bottom' clip might be from when they try and "pull some birds" in a bar, but guess what ?..they are gay..

but that does not stop our intrepid duo, they attempt to chat up the ladies with efforts like "hi birds" "come back lesbians" and "oh you are lebsians ?, don't worry, I will cure you"..

Richard Richard and Eddie Hitler mess it up....once again.

First one below I always remember haha. Saw that years ago. 3 other good ones there too. Haven't seen that series in so long.















(This post was last modified: 02-Oct-2014 07:16 PM by Front242.)
02-Oct-2014 07:11 PM
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Billie Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
We called some of our teachers Hitlers in grade school and high school.Lay Down Laughing

I don't think that GSM meant it in the true sense of the word, but so many hurtful things get posted here and I was always told "to grow a thicker skin", which I finally managed to do.Wink

But if I saw that Moxie got really hurt by my remarks, I would apologize to her.

If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world. NT
02-Oct-2014 08:21 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
I think we need a baseline of civility for dealing with these objections, though. It's not on to be calling anyone names like this, particularly this, then hiding behind a fricking dictionary - which I'll confess, was a touch! Lay Down Laughing

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03-Oct-2014 02:40 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(02-Oct-2014 01:09 AM)tented Wrote:  
(02-Oct-2014 12:45 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  I was giving the benefit of doubt that perhaps folks are unaware that it is a standard usage
that is even defined in dictionaries. If you are aware of it, then it is a difference of opinion and
let us agree to disagree (unless, of course, you want to argue further in which case we can
continue).

No, we're not going to agree to disagree. The use of "Hitler" and other Nazi symbols is highly offensive to many people. Some countries even ban their use entirely.

You're intelligent enough to have come up with other ways to have communicated your perceptions without having reflexively grasped for the "dictator" and "Hitler" tropes.

OK, well, Let us argue further.

Just to make sure that you are getting the connotation clear, I explicitly posted that
the connotation here does not involve racism, genocide, Nazis, Swastika etc. The usage
of "Hitler" here is simply referring to the second sense of the word as defined in
dictionary. In response to that you seemed to indicate that you understood the
connotation, but then you are going back now on it.

The problem is that to you it seems impossible to form a mental image of the
word "Hitler" without the associated paraphernalia of racism, Nazis etc etc.
That is a problem of perception caused by your mind and not a problem of
the word in and of itself.

So, in summary, if you disagree, you are not really disagreeing with me,
but rather with the editors of dictionary. After all, the dictionary did not
create a second definition just so that I can justify myself or just to suit
my convenience. Only when a word is widely used in a certain sense, it
gets in as part of the dictionary.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
03-Oct-2014 05:34 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
It's kinda difficult to 'form a mental image of the word "Hitler"' without seeing a funny moustache, tragic trains heading to concentration camps and monstrous war unjustly visited on Europe.

Of course, there's a dictionary somewhere that suggests something less brutal, but that's hardly the first thing we do when we think of Hitler - reach for the dictionary and see what it means...

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03-Oct-2014 05:38 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(03-Oct-2014 02:40 AM)Kieran Wrote:  I think we need a baseline of civility for dealing with these objections, though. It's not on to be calling anyone names like this, particularly this, then hiding behind a fricking dictionary - which I'll confess, was a touch! Lay Down Laughing

That is nonsense. The dictionary is not written by them for me to hide behind it. A particular
sense of the word is included in the dictionary only if that word is widely used in that sense
also.

It appears that you are ignorant of that usage or refuse to accept that as a legitimate
usage. If so, that is your problem and yours only. You can choose to believe whatever you
want, but it does not have an effect on truth.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
03-Oct-2014 05:39 PM
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RE: Forum Questions
(02-Oct-2014 02:42 PM)Broken_Shoelace Wrote:  I guess by GSM's definition, any time a tennis player shows skill we can call him Federer.

1. The definition is not my definition, it is dictionary's definition.

2. I have often heard commentators use the term that shot was Federeresque
when a player comes up with a brilliant shot. I am not sure whether
"federesque" is a legitimate word in English yet. But, given his greatness
I would not be surprised if one day (if not already) it officially enters
the dictionary.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
03-Oct-2014 05:42 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(03-Oct-2014 05:38 PM)Kieran Wrote:  It's kinda difficult to 'form a mental image of the word "Hitler"' without seeing a funny moustache, tragic trains heading to concentration camps and monstrous war unjustly visited on Europe.

Of course, there's a dictionary somewhere that suggests something less brutal, but that's hardly the first thing we do when we think of Hitler - reach for the dictionary and see what it means...

It is not about some dictionary somewhere. Most dictionaries have that meaning associated
with the word.

Also, it is not about one going to the dictionary to search for the meaning of this word.
This kind of words get introduced in the dictionary in that sense only after it has been
used widely by many and then the dictionary finally deciding to officially recognize that.

The problem is you have a certain perspective and you think it is the only right perspective
contrary to valid evidence.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
03-Oct-2014 05:53 PM
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