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tented Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(16-Aug-2014 10:09 AM)Billie Wrote:  It is hard to maintain the integrity when admins are just fans of players. So it is normal that you see them protecting one fan base and not do the same for the others. In their mind they might think they act fairly towards everybody but it is impossible to do.

If you could provide examples of our being unfair or not "protecting" someone, then we can discuss them.

We have purposely brought in a mix of people who are fans of different players to be the moderators. As a Djokovic fan, we have Riotbeard, for example. Murat is a Federer fan. KSKATE2 is so impartial, even we don't know who she roots for. Moxie and I are Rafa fans, and Britbox is another Federer fan. It's not like it's stacked in favor of one player.
16-Aug-2014 01:14 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(16-Aug-2014 12:32 AM)mrzz Wrote:  Even if you think that they might be "protecting" player Y or Z, in the end they are just beeing practical. They are presuming that opening this door would end in an ugly way, even if it is not a law suit. Loosing good and reasonable posters because of irrational claims is close to disaster to a forum. This forum has a lot of good and reasonable posters to care about, so they are looking for them.

Such decisions are made over double standards? Sure, they *must* be.

I thought they were protecting player X. Wink

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
16-Aug-2014 05:16 PM
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Kieran (08-20-2014)
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RE: Forum Questions
^Nah. These people can't even be coherent.
16-Aug-2014 10:33 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(16-Aug-2014 01:16 AM)Moxie629 Wrote:  You seem to keep asking where the boundaries are. (The deleted post you were asking about was the last in a series of a variation on the same question.) I would refer you to the policy that we have delineated, once again, and to this post from britbox (post #54):

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/show...815&page=3

I highlight this point from britbox:

The consensus was not to allow direct accusations of players based on conjecture. That doesn't mean the mechanics of doping can't be discussed, court cases can't be discussed, doping doctors can't be discussed, drugs can't be discussed, rulings can't be discussed, players who have failed tests can't be discussed ..etc - They all can. (and again, speaking for myself, I believe doping is more widespread than a lot of other people who post on the boards).

Basically, be smart - don't accuse specific players of doping where there isn't any sort of evidence other than conjecture or joining the dots backwards.


You've asked about parameters in more than a few ways. And I think we've addressed them. Hopefully, there is no longer any confusion about boundaries.

I still don't understand as to why this is an explanation for the deletion of my posting.
I asked you a legitimate question seeking a clarification on the new guidelines. You could have

1. answered it directly.
2. you could have referred to britbox's post as you are doing above and asked me
to make my own judgement using it.
3. you could have retorted asking me to stop keep asking questions.
4. you could have simply ignored my post, if you are tired of responding in any manner whatsoever.


Instead of doing any of these, you choose to unilaterally and abruptly delete the post.
On top of that, you did not have the courtesy to send a PM to me informing me that you
are deleting one of my posts and you are doing it for so and so reasons.

Also, remember that this post was not in the thread that went through major "ethnic cleansing"
and instead was in the biological passport thread.

Finally, I think I deserve a better answer than simply asking me to "get over it".

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
17-Aug-2014 01:17 AM
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Billie Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
^^ Maybe one of the mods can answer youWink

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17-Aug-2014 09:02 AM
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Billie Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(16-Aug-2014 01:14 PM)tented Wrote:  
(16-Aug-2014 10:09 AM)Billie Wrote:  It is hard to maintain the integrity when admins are just fans of players. So it is normal that you see them protecting one fan base and not do the same for the others. In their mind they might think they act fairly towards everybody but it is impossible to do.

If you could provide examples of our being unfair or not "protecting" someone, then we can discuss them.

We have purposely brought in a mix of people who are fans of different players to be the moderators. As a Djokovic fan, we have Riotbeard, for example. Murat is a Federer fan. KSKATE2 is so impartial, even we don't know who she roots for. Moxie and I are Rafa fans, and Britbox is another Federer fan. It's not like it's stacked in favor of one player.

Thanks for listing those names, I am very well aware of them and who they are. I am sure mods are good at deleting spam and fixing threads, setting polls, etc.

I don't feel like I need to provide anything, maybe you should read my whole post again and see some of the examples that I provided already. And this coming from the person who declared that Djokovic fans are not really tennis fans in one of the slandering threads from a year ago. An admin who participated actively in mocking members of one fan base. I know it was tempting for you, but as an admin you should prevent those and try to resist the temptation, for the sake of other members of the board.

Let's just leave all this how it is. It is your board, I am fully willing to cooperate, I won't complain if some of my posts are deleted and I will gladly apologize if my posts cross the boundaries of whatever admins think. I hope there were never problems with any of my posts in the past and I promise that there will be no problems with them in future. I fully accept that you make the rules around here and if I don't like them or feel uncomfortable, I will just stop coming here. It is as simple as that. I just ask that you please don't insult my intelligence with posts as this one as we all know who is who around here. Thank you!Smile

If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world. NT
17-Aug-2014 09:17 AM
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tented Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(17-Aug-2014 09:17 AM)Billie Wrote:  
(16-Aug-2014 01:14 PM)tented Wrote:  
(16-Aug-2014 10:09 AM)Billie Wrote:  It is hard to maintain the integrity when admins are just fans of players. So it is normal that you see them protecting one fan base and not do the same for the others. In their mind they might think they act fairly towards everybody but it is impossible to do.

If you could provide examples of our being unfair or not "protecting" someone, then we can discuss them.

We have purposely brought in a mix of people who are fans of different players to be the moderators. As a Djokovic fan, we have Riotbeard, for example. Murat is a Federer fan. KSKATE2 is so impartial, even we don't know who she roots for. Moxie and I are Rafa fans, and Britbox is another Federer fan. It's not like it's stacked in favor of one player.

Thanks for listing those names, I am very well aware of them and who they are. I am sure mods are good at deleting spam and fixing threads, setting polls, etc.

I don't feel like I need to provide anything, maybe you should read my whole post again and see some of the examples that I provided already. And this coming from the person who declared that Djokovic fans are not really tennis fans in one of the slandering threads from a year ago. An admin who participated actively in mocking members of one fan base. I know it was tempting for you, but as an admin you should prevent those and try to resist the temptation, for the sake of other members of the board.

Let's just leave all this how it is. It is your board, I am fully willing to cooperate, I won't complain if some of my posts are deleted and I will gladly apologize if my posts cross the boundaries of whatever admins think. I hope there were never problems with any of my posts in the past and I promise that there will be no problems with them in future. I fully accept that you make the rules around here and if I don't like them or feel uncomfortable, I will just stop coming here. It is as simple as that. I just ask that you please don't insult my intelligence with posts as this one as we all know who is who around here. Thank you!Smile

If you still refuse to supply even one example of what you're referring to, yet continue to make accusations, then you're simply being unfair and dishonest.

Also, you also seem to be implying that one or more of your posts have been deleted. This is not the case.

Finally, the moderators are invaluable to the success of this forum. They are far more than "good at deleting spam and fixing threads, setting polls ..." They read through everything the members post, and take action when necessary (which is rare), but it does take quite a bit of time, and all on their own free time. No one receives so much as a penny for their efforts here. This is all volunteer work, and the mods do a superlative job.
17-Aug-2014 12:48 PM
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Moxie629 (08-17-2014)
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RE: Forum Questions
This is one of my issues that was never answered:

"And this coming from the person who declared that Djokovic fans are not really tennis fans in one of the slandering threads from a year ago. The admin who participated actively in mocking members of one fan base. I know it was tempting for you, but as an admin you should prevent those and try to resist the temptation, for the sake of other members of the board."

Yes, I am dishonest and unfair but my concerns about attacks on Nole fans coming from one of the admins is apparently not important enough to be answered. I accept that and I wasn't really expecting anything better. Let's move on, shall we?

You should read carefully what posters write: I said I don't care if my posts get deleted (in future) if they are not within the boundaries of the board policy....you are welcome to do so without notifying me. Clear now?

If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world. NT
17-Aug-2014 06:45 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(17-Aug-2014 06:45 PM)Billie Wrote:  This is one of my issues that was never answered:

"And this coming from the person who declared that Djokovic fans are not really tennis fans in one of the slandering threads from a year ago. The admin who participated actively in mocking members of one fan base. I know it was tempting for you, but as an admin you should prevent those and try to resist the temptation, for the sake of other members of the board."

Yes, I am dishonest and unfair but my concerns about attacks on Nole fans coming from one of the admins is apparently not important enough to be answered. I accept that and I wasn't really expecting anything better. Let's move on, shall we?

You should read carefully what posters write: I said I don't care if my posts get deleted (in future) if they are not within the boundaries of the board policy....you are welcome to do so without notifying me. Clear now?

How can anyone answer that "issue" if you don't explain when/what happened? You are being rather unfair, on that. This forum is specifically about discussing how the boards are run. But we can't address grievances unless they are clearly spelled out. As to your above comment, which I bolded, you are rather making a martyr of yourself and dissing the Administration of this board, without actually making a fair argument out of it. If you have a grievance, spell it out. That is the point of this forum. We'll appreciate your candor. But, at this point, it's hard to take your complaints seriously, without back up. I'm sure you can understand that.

Additionally, I will reiterate tented's point that no posts of yours have ever been deleted. You never actually say anything controversial enough to be deleted, by a far margin.
(This post was last modified: 17-Aug-2014 09:10 PM by Moxie629.)
17-Aug-2014 08:12 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(17-Aug-2014 08:12 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  This forum is specifically about discussing how the boards are run. But we can't address grievances unless they are clearly spelled out.

My grievance was clearly spelt four days ago in post #24. But, I am still waiting for it to be addressed. Dodgy

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
20-Aug-2014 10:49 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(17-Aug-2014 01:17 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(16-Aug-2014 01:16 AM)Moxie629 Wrote:  You seem to keep asking where the boundaries are. (The deleted post you were asking about was the last in a series of a variation on the same question.) I would refer you to the policy that we have delineated, once again, and to this post from britbox (post #54):

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/show...815&page=3

I highlight this point from britbox:

The consensus was not to allow direct accusations of players based on conjecture. That doesn't mean the mechanics of doping can't be discussed, court cases can't be discussed, doping doctors can't be discussed, drugs can't be discussed, rulings can't be discussed, players who have failed tests can't be discussed ..etc - They all can. (and again, speaking for myself, I believe doping is more widespread than a lot of other people who post on the boards).

Basically, be smart - don't accuse specific players of doping where there isn't any sort of evidence other than conjecture or joining the dots backwards.


You've asked about parameters in more than a few ways. And I think we've addressed them. Hopefully, there is no longer any confusion about boundaries.

I still don't understand as to why this is an explanation for the deletion of my posting.
I asked you a legitimate question seeking a clarification on the new guidelines. You could have

1. answered it directly.
2. you could have referred to britbox's post as you are doing above and asked me
to make my own judgement using it.
3. you could have retorted asking me to stop keep asking questions.
4. you could have simply ignored my post, if you are tired of responding in any manner whatsoever.


Instead of doing any of these, you choose to unilaterally and abruptly delete the post.
On top of that, you did not have the courtesy to send a PM to me informing me that you
are deleting one of my posts and you are doing it for so and so reasons.

Also, remember that this post was not in the thread that went through major "ethnic cleansing"
and instead was in the biological passport thread.

Finally, I think I deserve a better answer than simply asking me to "get over it".

(20-Aug-2014 10:49 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(17-Aug-2014 08:12 PM)Moxie629 Wrote:  This forum is specifically about discussing how the boards are run. But we can't address grievances unless they are clearly spelled out.

My grievance was clearly spelt four days ago in post #24. But, I am still waiting for it to be addressed. Dodgy

OK, you asked that the specific post be addressed. As you see, no one asked you to "get over it." However, you had been asking essentially the same question over and over, so you were referred to previous advice, your #2, as you suggested. As to your #1, I had answered you with consideration. Your 3rd post posing the same question was deleted because it seemed you were being pointedly tiresome/goading, and I think you are now.

Also, I'm not sure that you meant to be this offensive, but to use the phrase "ethnic cleansing" with regards to deletions on a tennis forum is not just hyperbolic, but enormously insensitive.

I suppose the question now is, what do you think this board owes you that it is not offering you? Let's take it from there.
21-Aug-2014 12:10 AM
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RE: Forum Questions
An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM
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Front242 (08-26-2014)
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RE: Forum Questions
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but most of this stuff happens most of the time behind the scenes. I think for the most part the admins and mods take deleting posts more seriously than may be apparent, and deletions are almost always accompanied by considerable discussion. That being said, I am not opposed to a more clear process. It's just worth noting for your own benefit that this does usually happen, and the process behind the scenes is quite democratic.

While I am also not gonna state where I fall in my own opinion on the discussion of doping. I support the Admins. They were in a tough place, and a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't, so I would assume, they took very seriously many of the types of logical questions you have been asking, when making their decision. It is simply a no win. There does have to be a line, but where to put it, is not quite as simple as many have been implying.
(This post was last modified: 21-Aug-2014 05:11 PM by Riotbeard.)
21-Aug-2014 05:10 PM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(21-Aug-2014 05:10 PM)Riotbeard Wrote:  
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but most of this stuff happens most of the time behind the scenes. I think for the most part the admins and mods take deleting posts more seriously than may be apparent, and deletions are almost always accompanied by considerable discussion. That being said, I am not opposed to a more clear process. It's just worth noting for your own benefit that this does usually happen, and the process behind the scenes is quite democratic.

While I am also not gonna state where I fall in my own opinion on the discussion of doping. I support the Admins. They were in a tough place, and a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't, so I would assume, they took very seriously many of the types of logical questions you have been asking, when making their decision. It is simply a no win. There does have to be a line, but where to put it, is not quite as simple as many have been implying.

I am talking about posts that did not violate the new guidelines and yet got deleted.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
21-Aug-2014 05:15 PM
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Riotbeard Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(21-Aug-2014 05:15 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(21-Aug-2014 05:10 PM)Riotbeard Wrote:  
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but most of this stuff happens most of the time behind the scenes. I think for the most part the admins and mods take deleting posts more seriously than may be apparent, and deletions are almost always accompanied by considerable discussion. That being said, I am not opposed to a more clear process. It's just worth noting for your own benefit that this does usually happen, and the process behind the scenes is quite democratic.

While I am also not gonna state where I fall in my own opinion on the discussion of doping. I support the Admins. They were in a tough place, and a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't, so I would assume, they took very seriously many of the types of logical questions you have been asking, when making their decision. It is simply a no win. There does have to be a line, but where to put it, is not quite as simple as many have been implying.

I am talking about posts that did not violate the new guidelines and yet got deleted.

I know, but I did not delete your post, and can't speak for its deletion. I was responding more generally, as for the most part I have been staying out of this in public.
21-Aug-2014 05:18 PM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(21-Aug-2014 05:10 PM)Riotbeard Wrote:  
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but most of this stuff happens most of the time behind the scenes. I think for the most part the admins and mods take deleting posts more seriously than may be apparent, and deletions are almost always accompanied by considerable discussion. That being said, I am not opposed to a more clear process. It's just worth noting for your own benefit that this does usually happen, and the process behind the scenes is quite democratic.

While I am also not gonna state where I fall in my own opinion on the discussion of doping. I support the Admins. They were in a tough place, and a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't, so I would assume, they took very seriously many of the types of logical questions you have been asking, when making their decision. It is simply a no win. There does have to be a line, but where to put it, is not quite as simple as many have been implying.

Thanks for saying that RB. We basically already do everything that GSM was asking for. A lot of conversation goes on behind the scenes before moderation happens, and we don't act unilaterally. We do work hard to be fair.
22-Aug-2014 01:26 AM
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britbox Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

A dozen or so outside of those two threads and excluding the gibberish ones trying to flog Nike trainers or selling viagra.

What you are suggesting isn't as others have already stated a million miles away from what goes on already.

I think you've made some fair points and they've been taken on board. The above process is probably too rigid to be done to the letter as people are in different timezones, have outside commitments etc... and also bear in mind this is a voluntary co-operative type of community and we're all in different continents... and yes, sometimes mistakes are made too. But the gist of what you've said is along the right lines IMO.

Going forward, I'd like to draw a line under this before the US Open. Agreed?
(This post was last modified: 22-Aug-2014 07:02 AM by britbox.)
22-Aug-2014 06:59 AM
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Billie Offline
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RE: Forum Questions
That is perfectly said BB!!!

Going forward, if I need to be reprimanded, can I ask that BB or Riot do it?Blush

If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world. NT
22-Aug-2014 10:42 PM
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Riotbeard (08-22-2014)
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RE: Forum Questions
(22-Aug-2014 06:59 AM)britbox Wrote:  
(21-Aug-2014 04:58 PM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  An open letter to all administrators/moderators with a suggestion for a protocol on deletion of posts.

There are so many aspects of this forum that are appealing to us, as members: knowledgeable
and mostly collegial posters, nice blogs, video vaults, contests (to name a few). I am concerned
that one negative point does not unnecessarily bring down the value of this whole forum,
detract from the positive experiences and unnecessarily create conflict among its members.
The negative point is arbitrary deletion of posts made by members.

As I feel that my post was unjustly deleted and as I noticed that another member's post
was deleted, I think it is time for this forum to develop a solid protocol for deletion of posts
made by members. No, I am not asking you to go back on the new guidelines developed.
The two messages that I mention above did not violate the new guidelines, but were
arbitrarily and unjustly deleted.

In order to make my criticism a constructive criticism, I am going to take it
upon myself to suggest an action plan to remedy the situation.

I do realize that sometimes moderators have to delete a post immediately to prevent
it from having a chain reaction and being quoted by so many other members. I take that
into account also in the following action plan.

1. When a moderator notices a post that is probably inappropriate, the moderator should
delete it immediately. This deletion should be provisional pending final decision.

2. The moderator that performed the deletion should immediately notify the member
that they decided to delete the message temporarily and a final decision on it is
pending.

3. The moderator that performed the deletion should send a copy of the message to
all other administrators and moderators along with an explanation as to why
she choose to delete it.

4. All other moderators/administrators, who are available, should independently weigh in on the issue.

5. After a period of at least 24 hours (but before 48 hours) and after at least
three different moderators/administrators (possibly and preferably all too) have had a
chance to weigh in, the majority opinion of all the moderators/administrators
who weighed in should be the final decision.

6. If the final decision is in support of deletion, a PM should be sent to the
member saying so and also providing a reason in support of it. This will
help the member to understand as to what rule is being violated, so that
the member will not repeat the same mistake.

7. On the other hand, if the decision is against the deletion, the post
should be reinstated and a PM should be sent to the member of the
decision reached. No need for an explanation or apology by the moderators
in this case.

IMHO, the recent problems are arising as one moderator is performing
deletions based on whims and fancies. Involving a committee of moderators
in the decision of deletions would probably help to ensure the integrity of the
decision.

Also, having a time delay in making the final decision would help for
the tempers of the moderators to cool off a little bit and make a more considered
decision.

Finally, one may say that this is a trivial matter and the above procedure
is way too complex. However, britbox claims that only about dozen or so
posts were deleted from over 115,000 posts. With such a low rate of deletion,
the above protocol should be logistically feasible to implement.

A dozen or so outside of those two threads and excluding the gibberish ones trying to flog Nike trainers or selling viagra.

What you are suggesting isn't as others have already stated a million miles away from what goes on already.

I think you've made some fair points and they've been taken on board. The above process is probably too rigid to be done to the letter as people are in different timezones, have outside commitments etc... and also bear in mind this is a voluntary co-operative type of community and we're all in different continents... and yes, sometimes mistakes are made too. But the gist of what you've said is along the right lines IMO.

Going forward, I'd like to draw a line under this before the US Open. Agreed?

I understand the issues that you mention. I did not mean to give you a rigid protocol,
but a sample sketch. The key elements must be to bring in more heads into the process
and have a delay in final decision so that heat of the moment does not adversely
influence the decisions.

Anyway, taking a cue from Israel and Palestine, let us all declare ceasefile until midnight
of Monday, the 8th of September. Chillout

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
22-Aug-2014 11:21 PM
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RE: Forum Questions
(22-Aug-2014 10:42 PM)Billie Wrote:  That is perfectly said BB!!!

Going forward, if I need to be reprimanded, can I ask that BB or Riot do it?Blush

I didn't know you can choose your executioner.

Can we also have a death wish whereby a poster about to be banned gets an
uncensored last post? Lolz

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
22-Aug-2014 11:24 PM
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