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Poll: Pick winner and 3rd place
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Germany 20.00% 1 20.00%
Argentina 40.00% 2 40.00%
Brazil 40.00% 2 40.00%
Holland 0% 0 0%
Total 5 votes 100%
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2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
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tennisville Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
Messing winning that cup and we would see no end to the GOAT debate No No I still believe the real magician for Argentina was Diego Maradona Clap He was a great leader who could inspire the team to play higher than usual. Thats why with a mediocre team he won the world cup in 86
14-Jul-2014 12:37 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
Yeah, everybody wants today's sporting greats to be goats. Argentina needed a Maradona yesterday, but they have Messi, instead. Messi is a great footballer, the greatest in the world maybe, but it's unfair to expect him to make the same impact as old Diego...

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14-Jul-2014 02:15 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(14-Jul-2014 12:37 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Messing winning that cup and we would see no end to the GOAT debate No No I still believe the real magician for Argentina was Diego Maradona Clap He was a great leader who could inspire the team to play higher than usual. Thats why with a mediocre team he won the world cup in 86

Goats don't sniff. Goats don't get banned for more than an year. Goats don't get sent
back to home country after attempting to participate in a world cup and failing a drug
test.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
14-Jul-2014 09:43 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
Well, that's a good point about Maradona, he was/is a crazy bloke. None of these things took place when he was in his prime, but they certainly tarnished his gleam...

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14-Jul-2014 10:40 AM
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Moxie629 Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(14-Jul-2014 10:40 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Well, that's a good point about Maradona, he was/is a crazy bloke. None of these things took place when he was in his prime, but they certainly tarnished his gleam...

Apparently, it depends on who you ask. There is a really interesting article in the New York Times from Sunday, about why Argentinians still prize Maradona, and withhold their love for Messi. (Though he does appear to be growing on them.) It's a bit long, if you're disinclined, but makes some fascinating points: Maradona, for all his flaws, more represents to Argentines not just their possibilities and fire, but their darker side, as well. And Maradona played IN Argentina, and won all of his best matches for them. Messi abdicated for Spain, (which I think is understandable,) but he's had his greatest glories winning for Barça, not Argentina.

IMO, this has a lot to do with why Messi felt so much pressure to perform, and, sadly, it got to him.
14-Jul-2014 06:37 PM
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tennisville Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(14-Jul-2014 09:43 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(14-Jul-2014 12:37 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Messing winning that cup and we would see no end to the GOAT debate No No I still believe the real magician for Argentina was Diego Maradona Clap He was a great leader who could inspire the team to play higher than usual. Thats why with a mediocre team he won the world cup in 86

Goats don't sniff. Goats don't get banned for more than an year. Goats don't get sent
back to home country after attempting to participate in a world cup and failing a drug
test.

depends on the defination of GOAT. I never said Maradona was the GOAT, just the best player for Argentina Clap He did inspire his team to glory,was with Napoli when they won the Serie A title. They have till now not won a title after he left. And he played his best when it mattered the most unlike Messi who was MIA in the knockout phases of the world cup

Secondly those were near the end of Diegos career, we dont have that for Messi right now
(This post was last modified: 15-Jul-2014 12:23 AM by tennisville.)
15-Jul-2014 12:22 AM
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tennisville Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
Anyone else feel Messi did not deserve the golden ball , I thought Muller or Kroos deserved it
15-Jul-2014 12:24 AM
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GameSetAndMath Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(15-Jul-2014 12:24 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Anyone else feel Messi did not deserve the golden ball , I thought Muller or Kroos deserved it

Maradona feels so and he even bothered to say it in public.

See http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/ma...cup-071414

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" - Mark Twain
(This post was last modified: 15-Jul-2014 12:57 AM by GameSetAndMath.)
15-Jul-2014 12:56 AM
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tennisville Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(15-Jul-2014 12:56 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(15-Jul-2014 12:24 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Anyone else feel Messi did not deserve the golden ball , I thought Muller or Kroos deserved it

Maradona feels so and he even bothered to say it in public.

See http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/ma...cup-071414

and correctly as wellClap Case in point: He was unable to make it into the Fifa all star 11 of the world cup Wink
15-Jul-2014 01:46 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(15-Jul-2014 12:24 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Anyone else feel Messi did not deserve the golden ball , I thought Muller or Kroos deserved it

That's the Player of the Tournament, right? No No

I think it must have been agreed he'd get it before the tournament, because Messi wasn't even the best Argentinian player of the World Cup - that would be Mascherano.

These things are more about corporate branding than anything else...

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15-Jul-2014 03:29 AM
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tennisville Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(15-Jul-2014 03:29 AM)Kieran Wrote:  
(15-Jul-2014 12:24 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Anyone else feel Messi did not deserve the golden ball , I thought Muller or Kroos deserved it

That's the Player of the Tournament, right? No No

I think it must have been agreed he'd get it before the tournament, because Messi wasn't even the best Argentinian player of the World Cup - that would be Mascherano.

These things are more about corporate branding than anything else...

Right, I mean it really isnt a surprise that an adidas sponsered player got the adidas golden ball No No Messi did not even make it into the Fifa all star 11 of the event

But I feel it should have gone to Thomas Muller, he really was outstanding this whole tournament
(This post was last modified: 15-Jul-2014 09:38 AM by tennisville.)
15-Jul-2014 09:36 AM
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Kieran (07-15-2014)
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
[Image: 126909-Encino-Man-Germany-Brazil-Worl-T0lq.gif]
16-Jul-2014 01:39 AM
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JesuslookslikeBorg Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
messi seemed weighed down by the whole planet sitting back, arms folded and saying.."go on then..be awesome, win the world cup on your own and be anointed the goat"

the nervous smile he emitted after blasting that injury time of extra time free kick over the bar told the story. still 4 goals and the 'pass of the century' vs Belgium will have to do this time, oh and the ice cool pen in the sf shoot-out Idea I think he should not be captain in future and just focus on himself.

anyone notice how messi strolled away from saballa's frantic team talk in extra time ?.

knowing me alan partridge, knowing you tennis frontier..ah ha.
16-Jul-2014 06:45 PM
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Kieran (07-17-2014)
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(15-Jul-2014 12:22 AM)tennisville Wrote:  
(14-Jul-2014 09:43 AM)GameSetAndMath Wrote:  
(14-Jul-2014 12:37 AM)tennisville Wrote:  Messing winning that cup and we would see no end to the GOAT debate No No I still believe the real magician for Argentina was Diego Maradona Clap He was a great leader who could inspire the team to play higher than usual. Thats why with a mediocre team he won the world cup in 86

Goats don't sniff. Goats don't get banned for more than an year. Goats don't get sent
back to home country after attempting to participate in a world cup and failing a drug
test.

depends on the defination of GOAT. I never said Maradona was the GOAT, just the best player for Argentina Clap He did inspire his team to glory,was with Napoli when they won the Serie A title. They have till now not won a title after he left. And he played his best when it mattered the most unlike Messi who was MIA in the knockout phases of the world cup

Secondly those were near the end of Diegos career, we dont have that for Messi right now
And I also think the GOAT debate is a bit exaggerated. Pele won 3 world cups, Ronaldo won 2 WC's and lost one final, Zidane won one WC and lost one final, Maradona won one WC and lost one final, and yet journalists were saying if Messi won this world cup, he was going to be the GOAT. I found that to be disrespectful to the past greats of the game. I think if Messi had won this one, he would have been considered one of the greatest players, but not the greatest .
16-Jul-2014 10:15 PM
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Kieran (07-17-2014)
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
I don't think it's a question of Messi winning a World Cup, because individuals don't do that, but only as part of a team. Pele played in a magnificent team, Maradona in a more ordinary one. Johan Cruyff never won a WC winners medal, but everybody accepts that he's as great a player as you'd ever see. Puskas, di Stefano, Zico.

But Messi didn't play great football at this World Cup. This is the measure. Same for the Portuguese Ronaldo. Now, he can say he was injured but even still, he's never played a great WC and this was his third. Messi was fine in spurts and against Iran and some other heavyweight team he scored great goals, but when it came to shaking down the medals, he didn't make any difference at all. He was marked out of it against Holland and though he had more room against the Germans, he wasn't able to make an impact.

So I don't know, Maradona and Zidane and Pele and Cruyff all raised their games in the WC, and Messi didn't. I don't even think he was Argentina's best player. And before anyone says, oh, the marking and fouls, please look at the treatment Maradona use to get.

But to me, it's not about goats, which are always based upon bias. It's about this: did the guy perform great at the very highest levels of the game?

Yes, with Barcelona, but not with Argentina. And we can say that with Argentina he didn't have Xavi and Iniesta and all the rest of them, but even still, he had a fine side. So, he's definitely a great footballer, that much is evident, and he's one of the best we've seen, and I'd say he's most likely the best of this era, but it would be silly for anyone to say he's the greatest footballer who ever played the game...

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JesuslookslikeBorg Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
im not a big fan of the.."you gotta win the wc to be goat" narrative. i'm not into goats full stop much.

what..so if messi has scored with that late free kick in the final and arg won wc on pens then a load of folk would be calling messi the goat but cos the opposite happened then he is not..Huh PAH Angry I'm not having that.

the champions league is of higher quality than world cups are..brazil would never even finish high enough in the prem to even qualify for the champs league.

obviously the world cup is bigger (just about)..after all the name 'world cup' suggests a certain global inclusiveness :snigger..but messi dominating la liga and champs lg (along with Ronnie)..is more impressive for me.

anyway messi..err I mean argentina didn't win the wc..so..blahblahblaaaaaahhhhhh.

knowing me alan partridge, knowing you tennis frontier..ah ha.
(This post was last modified: 17-Jul-2014 03:52 PM by JesuslookslikeBorg.)
17-Jul-2014 03:40 PM
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
Excellent post. It is also about playing in a good team, and Pele did play with stars. So did Zidane and Ronaldo. As you say, many of these stars did rise to the occasion at the WC; Zidane in 98, Ronaldo in 2002 (and partly 1998) and Romario 94. Messi unfortunately did not play very well this WC, particularly past the group stages, but I have to say that the likes of Aguero and Lavezzi did not step up when Messi could not score. They wasted so many good chances. The fact that Mascheranno was their true best player says it all, while in 1986 at least Burruchaga could score whenever Maradona did not.
17-Jul-2014 03:45 PM
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JesuslookslikeBorg Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
^^yes and didn't Jorge valdano play for real Madrid at that time ?..hardly a place for feeble and inferior players I'd say, and he actually scored 4 goals in the 86 wc (I think)..inc 1 in the final

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17-Jul-2014 03:50 PM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
I thought Lavezzi was playing well for Argentina - then he was replaced at half time.

JLLB, I saw that Messi walked away from the team talk during extra time. It was odd. He's a cool character...

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JesuslookslikeBorg Offline
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RE: 2014 FIFA World Cup Final & 3rd place
(17-Jul-2014 04:11 PM)Kieran Wrote:  I thought Lavezzi was playing well for Argentina - then he was replaced at half time.

JLLB, I saw that Messi walked away from the team talk during extra time. It was odd. He's a cool character...

yes levezzi was helping by attacking Germany down the right flank..i couldn't believe it when he was subbed at half timePuzzled ,the clown that came on poncio or gimpio or whatever with the long bit of hair was awful..what was going on in sabella's little head ? Huh not much I think.

..maybe that's why messi walked away ?..he thought "oh i'm not listening anymore to this dismal enfeebled bozo".

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17-Jul-2014 05:29 PM
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