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Chess World Championship
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DarthFed Offline
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Chess World Championship
I think I started a thread on the other boards but any chess players/fans on this forum?

The 12 game world championship match is through 7 games and the young challenger Magnus Carlsen is up 2-0-5 vs. the champ Viswanathan Anand. This was pretty much expected as Carlsen is flat out the best player in the world and Anand's form has been dropping the last few years as he is almost 44. A 2 win cushion with 5 games left is pretty much curtains. Carlsen at 22 will be the 2nd youngest champ in history after Garry Kasparov. Anand's chances came in the first few games where he had good positions but didn't push hard enough and settled for the draw.

It will be interesting to see if Magnus becomes the new Kasparov and is world champ for over 10 years. It is hard to see who his next challenger is as some of the old guard, including Anand, are on their way down. As a chess player I find Carlsen's games to be pretty boring (he is the ultimate end game player but plays conservatively until then) but that is all style preference much like tennis. Kasparov was my favorite player, that guy would set the board on fire and see things no one else could dream of.
18-Nov-2013 08:14 AM
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shawnbm Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
The young Swede has been moving in this direction for years. He is something else and still has the highest rating of any player in history, if I recall correctly. Too bad you can't take him against Fischer or Kasparov and see what would happen.

Virgil Cane is the name ...
18-Nov-2013 10:54 AM
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shawnbm Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
So, DarthFed, Kasparov is like your Federer and Carlsen is akin to Nadal? Smile I think I know who Kieran will like more. SmileSmileSmile

Virgil Cane is the name ...
18-Nov-2013 10:55 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Haha, I don't get that involved in the fanatics. Chess is very in your face, but as a fairly advanced player (way better at chess than tennis or anything else for that matter) I respect the different styles of chess. I've grown to really enjoy Kramnik's play and he was the one who dethroned Kasparov. I also sense that he is the only one right now who would be close to 50-50 vs. Carlsen in a match. But chess as a spectator sport isn't easy on the eyes!
18-Nov-2013 11:07 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(18-Nov-2013 10:54 AM)shawnbm Wrote:  The young Swede has been moving in this direction for years. He is something else and still has the highest rating of any player in history, if I recall correctly. Too bad you can't take him against Fischer or Kasparov and see what would happen.

Carlsen is actually Norwegian and he does have the ratings record already which is incredible. Kasparov's record only took 11 years to fall, I think Fischer's record from 1972 took almost 20 years for Kasparov to beat. There is definitely rating inflation over the years but Carlsen might reach over 2900 which is scary (Kasparov's highest was 2860).

I think Carlsen might end up being Fischer 2.0 in a way. Fischer was a monster in the end game and great positional skills to hammer home the smallest of advantages. Carlsen has a long ways to catch up to Kasparov and Fischer in his openings, but he is already the greatest end game player ever and it's not even close. It is scary how precise he is and that's why I think he might end up being a more advanced Fischer. Kasparov's style was completely different and that'd have made for awesome clashes with Fischer and Carlsen if you had a time machine Smile
(This post was last modified: 18-Nov-2013 11:12 AM by DarthFed.)
18-Nov-2013 11:09 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Great stuff, Darth! I remember that thread. The final is only 12 games? Isn't it usually 24? Has Anand any history against this kid? And has he the tools to drive back into it?

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19-Nov-2013 03:27 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(18-Nov-2013 10:55 AM)shawnbm Wrote:  So, DarthFed, Kasparov is like your Federer and Carlsen is akin to Nadal? Smile I think I know who Kieran will like more. SmileSmileSmile

Ah, I loved Kasparov too! See? I always like the greatest of them all! Wink

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19-Nov-2013 03:28 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(19-Nov-2013 03:27 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Great stuff, Darth! I remember that thread. The final is only 12 games? Isn't it usually 24? Has Anand any history against this kid? And has he the tools to drive back into it?

Oh they have plenty of history, probably 30+ games before the match. Anand used to own Carlsen up until about 3 years ago. Since then Carlsen has gotten the better of him and their overall form has gone in opposite directions. The format has been 12 games the last few matches.

I don't think Anand has a prayer to get back in it. You can argue "well he lost 2 games, he can certainly win 2" but that ignores a few things including the fact that his opponent is flat out better. The big problem is that Carlsen can now just play for the draw and that makes it a lot tougher to beat him compared to when the score is even and both are searching for a win. Game 8 was a quick draw today so Anand only has 4 games left. It's not happening.
19-Nov-2013 07:50 AM
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Kieran (11-19-2013)
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RE: Chess World Championship
I read that if they tie the series, then there's a play-off on the 28th. previously, the defending champ retained in the event of a tie, right?

Why did they reduce it from 24 to 12 games? Without much knowledge of the game, I always felt the longer format was better for that match...

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19-Nov-2013 08:00 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(19-Nov-2013 08:00 AM)Kieran Wrote:  I read that if they tie the series, then there's a play-off on the 28th. previously, the defending champ retained in the event of a tie, right?

Why did they reduce it from 24 to 12 games? Without much knowledge of the game, I always felt the longer format was better for that match...

Yes, they would finally have a playoff, whereas the champion used to retain the title in event of a tie (stupid rule). The title format has changed back and forth over time it seems. Sometimes 24 games, sometimes it was first to 5 or 6 wins, and now it seems to be 12 games the last few times. I think 24 might be too many and 12 too few. 18 games seems about right IMO.

The 5 or 6 wins is just crazy and that ended with Kasparov-Karpov in 1984 when Kasparov played rope a dope and drew like 30 games in a row to try to wear out Karpov, and it worked. That match was called off after 50 games with Karpov winning the first 5 and Kasparov winning 3 after exhausting his then superior opponent. It was valuable experience as Kasparov got a rematch the next year and won. Fischer wanted that format too vs. Karpov. Guys like Fischer and Kasparov would always excel in that because they are/were mad men that will play 100 games if need be. Karpov was a different kind of monster. Thankfully they will never go back to that format.
(This post was last modified: 19-Nov-2013 10:38 AM by DarthFed.)
19-Nov-2013 10:37 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
What do you think of the level of the games so far, Darth? Anything unusual or inspired about their tactics?

On wiki it says Carlsen declined to name his "seconds," his corner men. Why is that? Is it because his opponent can surmise his best approach from his advisers?

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19-Nov-2013 03:12 PM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(19-Nov-2013 03:12 PM)Kieran Wrote:  What do you think of the level of the games so far, Darth? Anything unusual or inspired about their tactics?

On wiki it says Carlsen declined to name his "seconds," his corner men. Why is that? Is it because his opponent can surmise his best approach from his advisers?

Pretty decent games, there are no monster blunders. Carlsen makes you pay if you play "second or third best" moves in the endgame and that's what happened in both of the decisive games. Innocent looking positions that figured to be drawn and out of nowhere Carlsen plays perfect to squeeze the win.

I didn't know that regarding Carlsen not naming his seconds. I guess I can see where it is helpful to know who your opponent is working with. When players have seconds it is mostly about opening preparation through the beginning of middle game play. If Anand is familiar with Carlsen's helpers (and almost certainly he is no matter who they are) then he might have a sense of what they are working with him on.

There are rumors that Kasparov has helped Carlsen again, if that's the case Magnus would be foolish to keep it quiet as any mention or sight of Kasparov will terrorize Anand. Anand was completely smoked by Garry the last 10 years of the latters' career. And Kasparov is likely the best there's ever been in the openings and is up there in middle games. You combine the strengths of Kasparov and Carlsen then God would have proper competition.
19-Nov-2013 04:50 PM
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Kieran (11-20-2013)
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RE: Chess World Championship
So Kasparov helps the youngster? Very interesting. Was reading yesterday that Carlsen almost beat Kasparov when he was a teenager. I have to say, without any ground knowledge of chess, I used to love watching Kasparov and his animated attack. He was very aggressive, wasn't he? I suppose he was old for a chess player when he retired. Old, in the sense that he wasn't going to be world champ again.

When's the next match?

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20-Nov-2013 05:55 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(20-Nov-2013 05:55 AM)Kieran Wrote:  So Kasparov helps the youngster? Very interesting. Was reading yesterday that Carlsen almost beat Kasparov when he was a teenager. I have to say, without any ground knowledge of chess, I used to love watching Kasparov and his animated attack. He was very aggressive, wasn't he? I suppose he was old for a chess player when he retired. Old, in the sense that he wasn't going to be world champ again.

When's the next match?

Carlsen almost beat him in a rapid time control (25 minutes or so) which is still impressive of course. Kasparov was extremely aggressive yet he was great in every phase of the game which is why he is still considered the best there has ever been by a good measure. Most attacking players are weak positionally and in the end game but not him. He would go years without dropping a game and had crazy tournament win streaks. Garry wasn't that old for chess (43) when he retired but he wanted to do politics. He was definitely past his best (Anand is 43 now and is clearly playing a lot worse than he used to) but Kasparov was still the #1 rated player and won the last 2 big tournaments he played.

At the time he retired Kramnik was still WC and was still the only player who likely would have had a chance vs. Kasaparov in a match (and Vlad would have a great one of course). Getting a WC match is quite a process and usually involves playing a couple candidate tournaments and then waiting a year or years for the title match to be set up.

So to answer your question I have no idea when the next match will be Wink
20-Nov-2013 07:43 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Sorry, I meant next game in this series!

Carlsen must be on quite a streak if he's got more ranking points than Kasparov, or does that tell us anything?

Cheers!

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20-Nov-2013 08:23 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
(20-Nov-2013 08:23 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Sorry, I meant next game in this series!

Carlsen must be on quite a streak if he's got more ranking points than Kasparov, or does that tell us anything?

Cheers!

Oh ok, next game is tomorrow I think and it is like 5 eastern time. I don't watch chess at all and would never wake up to watch it but I check out the games when they are done.

The thing about the ranking is it gets built up over time. Carlsen is now so far ahead of everyone in the rankings that it is hard for him to gain a lot of points. For instance, if the remaining games are drawn and the score ends up being 7-5 he will likely lose points for beating the World Champion by 2 points. So it isn't a streak, just great play over the years.

But there is definite rating inflation over the years, having to do with more players. Fischer of the early 70's was the most dominating player there's been since they started ratings and he only got up to 2780 (Spassky was just 2660 at the time of their match in 1972). Kasparov slowly built up the rating near the end of the 80's and early 90's and passed Fischer and got all the way up to 2860. Hard to believe that's only taken 12 years to fall.
20-Nov-2013 09:17 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Watching it live here. Anand is taking ages over his 23rd move. Carlsen pushed a pawn onto b3 in his 22nd move, and it has Anand scratching his chin. He's been at least 12 minutes contemplating this, and has 41 minutes left.

Carlsen is down to 35 minutes, playing with the black pieces...

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21-Nov-2013 07:15 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Anand looks utterly perplexed. He's down to less than 30 minutes now, still pondering this move. Fascinating watching the body language. Carlsen looks bored, sprawled on his chair, and Anand is rubbing his temples. Could all change when he makes his move.

He's spent 25 minutes over this one...

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21-Nov-2013 07:27 AM
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Kieran Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
After 30 minutes, Anand shoves his queen up behind his pawns and now Carlsen is scrunching his face. Two minutes later, he moves his horse.

In related news, they brought a cutie on to commentate. Her name to follow. Intense and earnest Indian hen, I think her name is Tania. Couldn't see it from the floor.

They're banging out the moves now and Anand looks more cocky than he did moments ago. Very interesting! Only about 50 minutes left...

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21-Nov-2013 07:38 AM
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DarthFed Offline
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RE: Chess World Championship
Brutal position for black here, good time to calculate the hell out of the position to assure the proper continuation.
21-Nov-2013 07:40 AM
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